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Episode 91 Transcript

Suzie Price  00:00

Today we're talking about executive presence and the power of options with Executive Coach Shawn Simon. Here's how Shawn describes how you have executive presence. The leaders that have the greatest executive presence are the ones that are being talked about during talent management committees and succession planning discussions. These are the people that have runway. So if your boss is talking to you about this level and the next level, and people are looking to you as a reference for information and leadership, you have an executive presence. And he also shares that if you don't have this yet, it is acquirable. It is a skill that you can build. If you have it, when you have this, you can be a director sitting in a room with a bunch of  Vice President, Senior Vice Presidents, and even higher levels and you don't see any difference if you fit in with all the other executives and operate like them. The hierarchy thing goes away. People that operate with executive presence bring all of this together, they have the gravitas we were talking about earlier. They're not going to be squashed or diminished by the fact that they are supposedly a lowly director. So we are talking about executive presence and much much more today. With Shawn Simon. He is a passionate executive coach. He has the science and experience to back up what he shares and he has the passion about what he does, and I'm eager to share it with you. Michael hit it.

Intro  01:28

Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce Podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host who is helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere. Suzie Price.

Suzie Price  01:58

As Michael shares in the intro, I am Suzie and you are listening to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast where we cover everything related to helping you and the employees in your organization. Build a high commitment, low drama, wake up eager workforce. So we're all about wake up eager here. At Priceless Professional Development. We help leaders in organizations make good decisions about their people. And so we provide processes and tools and resources. And the whole focus is to help you increase involvement and enthusiasm in the work in the workplace. And because we bring who we are to work, we don't leave all our tendencies and our preferences at home when we come to work. We also cover topics related to personal development. So it's personal and professional development, and tools to help you make good decisions. So our topics here are not only to wake up your workforce topics, but wake up your life topics because we want to create great connections and great engagement.

That translates to higher productivity, less turnover and higher profitability and wake up eager lives. So no dread on Sunday night when we have to go to work.  So today's episode is Episode 91. And the topic is executive presence and the power of options. The show notes are at So that executivepresence is all one word. So you go to my website, and you're going to type in And that's going to give you lots of things that we talk about, we've got a great pdf of summary of some of the books and things that Shawn mentions. And it will give you the transcript and everything about this episode that we cover.  So here is what we're going to cover. We're talking about, of course, developing executive presence that you heard.

As we got started today, we're going to have a discussion about the benefits of feedback and scientific rigor. We talk about these four power options. They're very interesting because it's telling you, reminding you of ways to adapt to the room and to what people need. And then we tie that together by talking about these styles and Motivators. So if you've always wondered about the DISC assessment, or if you're familiar with it or not familiar with it, you'll hear more about the DISC assessment and the Motivators assessment.

And then Shawn tells a little bit about his story, moving from an executive to an executive coach and  what, what was his career story around that? How did that happen? So a little bit about Shawn before we go right into our dialogue today is he is an accomplished biotech pharma executive. He has over 25 years of experience, coaching and leading sales and marketing and managing market teams at Fortune 500 companies like Bristol Myers Squibb, Sanofi and Novo Nordisk he also worked in the entrepreneurial part of that with building up a successful biotech startup Insys Therapeutics. And there he had roles as a Director, Vice President and Senior Vice President. So he has experience in that most executives deal with which is managing large budgets, billion dollar brands, p&l, million dollar million dollar campaigns, major reorganizations, managing all kinds of things, co promotion partners, and more. So great executive coach, while, in that way, he has led teams from people who are seven people to 1400 people.

As an executive coach, he works with CEOs, Presidents, General Managers, and Directors to achieve their key goals and changes and habits that they wish to build. He's so passionate about that. And so he's able to really relate to the people. He's coaching because he understands what they're going through. And he understands complex market dynamics and pressures and resource limitations and regulatory issues. So he is in the trenches and is able to be in the trenches with people who are seeking out an executive coach that can help them reach their goals and get to the next level. So his focus is trusting relationships with his clients and his specialty coaching areas include leadership effectiveness, we talked about all of this today, by the way, leadership, effectiveness leaders and transition leaders, interpersonal skills, and especially we talk about executive presence. So I am eager to share this with you. He does have all kinds of certifications, the way I met Shawn was he got certified as a Certified Professional DISC analyst in our certification program, and that was in 2015 I think. It's been a while. So we stay connected and he uses tools from our tool chest, to help his clients. And he has all kinds of certificates and education, and of course, you heard of his experience. So let's go to that episode. Now. I know you're going to enjoy it. Shawn, it's so good to see you. And you're coming to us from your RV. Glad you're here.

Shawn Simon  07:17

Suzie. Great to be here with you always.

Suzie Price  07:19

And tell me where your RV is right now. And how often do you do this? I think you do it in the winter months, right?

Shawn Simon  07:24

Well, I'm actually up here on the Jersey shore up, by Avalon and my new residence. I moved from Pennsylvania down to Naples, Florida, but it's too hot during the summer. So I'm up here back on the Jersey Shore for the hot months. So I'm here through October, then I'm back down to Naples, Florida.

Suzie Price  07:42

That sounds fantastic. I didn't realize you moved there full time. That's great.

Shawn Simon  07:47

And as you can see, I'm located here in the woods. There's woods all around me about three miles from the ocean. So it's a great place to be, to focus, relax, and do good work.

Suzie Price  08:00

Yeah, and you do. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about your work. Let's talk about executive presence. And what is it and why does it matter?

Shawn Simon  08:10

Yeah. So thank you for the question. First, it's important to note executive presence is not something you either have or don't have. Right? It can be acquired and developed over time. And with some practice and some patience, there's hope for everyone that wants to develop executive presence. Okay? And we all know when we see it, right? There are people that have executive presence in the boardroom of the executive committee, at the manager meetings, right? They have confidence, even under high pressure, right? They have strong communication skills. They're able to articulate what they're thinking about, and what they want to accomplish. They can be concise; they're active listeners. But importantly, and this is one of the reasons why DISC and the things that we do with Motivators are so important, because we need to, in the process, adapt our communication style to different audiences, right, and convey ideas with simplicity to the audience, the way they want to receive it. Mom always used to tell me, Shawn, do unto others as you want done unto yourself. Well, that was really good, until we got this science, right, this great science around DISC. And now we can interact with people the way they want to be engaged with, not the way we like it the way they would like to be engaged. So we went from the Golden Rule to the Platinum Rule. 

Suzie Price  09:35


Shawn Simon  09:38

Back to executive presence, one of the best definitions that I've seen over the years and experiences, it's the leaders ability to engage, align, and inspire people to move and act again, leaders ability to engage, align, inspire people to move and act. And there's a lot of qualities that go with that. And we talk about appearance, right? You want to be professional, you want to match the audience. I always say dress one level up if you're presenting, but you want to demonstrate professionalism in all you do, and that includes appearance. And you'll find people that have executive presence, they're very decisive, right? And they make decisions, and they take ownership of their decisions. All these things get captured in the broad term "executive presence".

Suzie Price  10:30

Awesome. I refer anybody who comes to me for the executive presence to you. I like how you talked about engage, align, inspire. And then when we think of executive presence, a lot of times people say I want somebody with gravitas, , and so that's what I see. But I love that the 360 is measuring, I wrote him down to remind myself, even though I was trained in and I don't deliver it like you do, so style, and execution is one part. Substance and credibility and character and trust. So it's what you see, but it's behind what you see, too, isn't it?

Shawn Simon  11:12

Exactly. And there's like 15 qualities of leadership. These are researched qualities of leadership that get captured in that SPI 360 assessment. So often, we're not being received the way we think we are, right? We have intent and then what happens is, we're not being received the way we intended to, we're being experienced differently, or perceived differently. And that's why I like that assessment, because it doesn't measure the leaders competency in practical wisdom, or authenticity, or inclusiveness. It measures how the leader is experiencing that dimension, which is so much more valuable to know how you're really being received, so that's an incredible tool to use. As well as you can't beat 360 interviews, 1:1 interviews with the people that work with them to understand how they're being received.

Suzie Price  12:06

Yeah, so you use the tool and you do interviews with people. 

Shawn Simon  12:09

I do live interviews. 

Suzie Price  12:13

You you pick up nuances probably in the in person interviews, and then with the assessment, it's kind of giving you a framework, specifically to executive presence.

Shawn Simon  12:23

Thank you. That's absolutely right, there are things you will pick up in the dialog. However, the assessment also allows the rater to write in things. So it's not just a pure sterile, multi rater tool, it does have the opportunity for people to write in. So that makes it even more valuable.

Suzie Price  12:43

And it's so funny about feedback. I like how you started that that segment right there where you said, we're not always received the way we think we are tending, we think we're being so clear that we're listening so well and, or certain things and sometimes we're just not,

Shawn Simon  13:00

It's absolutely so true. Literally yesterday, I'm coaching an executive, we were going over some of his more recent interactions. And now we're working on his ability to build relationships, and actions he can take to be more user friendly, and there's some cultural things that he's working through here in the US. But in the process, he shared with me, he'd been working with one leader, Sonia had a great relationship, like they talk at the end of the day five, he helps her she helps him and then the other day in an interaction with her and she had heard or thought that he meant something that was totally off base. It was nowhere near his intent, and he was so surprised. And she'd been carrying this with her for months, even though they engaged they work effectively together. But in his dialogue with her, he was inquiring on how he's doing and she brought this out and she held this back for so long. And I'm thinking of course, a DISC probably high S, you work with high S's they have emotions, but they don't really show them.

Suzie Price  14:12

Until they're asked and until they feel comfortable. Right,

Shawn Simon  14:16

Exactly. This is one of the ways we use DISC so effectively is we help people understand where others are at. And to help draw them out. I always say if you're working with a team and  you have a couple of S's, make sure you ask them the question because they have thoughts. They're just gonna hold back a little, they're not like the I's and the D's. 

Suzie Price  14:38

Yeah. So anybody who's listening who isn't familiar with the DISC Assessment, talk for a minute about what it is and how you use it.

Shawn Simon  14:47

Yeah. So I've been using the tool thanks to you, Suzie for like 14 or 15 years now. And it just captures people's style and I love DISC because it's so simple. Right? And I do Myers Brigg. I do the Hogan, I do all of them. But the DISC is just so straightforward and clear. It's easy to remember, it's easy to execute on. But it captures people's style, how they're received, right, their observable behavior. It doesn't capture why they do what they do, right? We know, that's Motivators. But it's really what we see: it's a car, they drive, I think one of the analogies we use is, it's the car and the gas that goes in, and it's the Motivators, the things that make you move. But the assessment is that very valuable for anyone looking to improve how they engage with others, and their self awareness, right? I end up actually coaching more people on them overplaying strength than I do filling some kind of gap. And if they're playing too hard, leaning into strength too much, sometimes that can be their blind spot. So it's a valuable tool. I recommend that and actually, I love to share with people, it's actually validated by Consulting for Dummies, they have a whole chapter on doing business development, and that chapter on business development. I'll actually read what it says, it says, the importance of knowing the client's style, right, engaging with them, it's actually DISC, if you understand the client's style, talk to them in their style. Yeah, so and then also, there's another book that also validates the importance of leveraging style. It's a bestseller. And honestly, it's gonna escape my mind here, give me a second The Seismic Shift in Leadership, it actually talks about leaders needing to understand their communication styles, and communicate clearly to each team member. So the importance of this cannot be underestimated. Yes. And you're so right, we take for granted that however we are our strengths, we kind of take it for granted, like, okay, yeah, that doesn't everybody do that? And so that's why we don't know what our strengths are. That's how we can overuse them. Because we think, oh I'll be direct. I love how you talked about how it becomes a blind spot. And so you use that quite a bit in all of your coaching and then also in executive presence, because it helps people when you say, the definition is their ability to engage, align and inspire people to move an act? Well, they're going to only move an act, if you've related to them in some way, began to understand who they are, and so that's how that ties into executive presence, isn't it? Absolutely. And the ability to know where people are at. So the other piece of executive presence, there's a researcher, Dr. Morandian, and he's done a lot of research on the three V's of communication. There's also the audience agenda, right? It's knowing where your audience is, what's top of mind. So if you have an executive presence, you're understanding where the audience is, you may understand the individual style of the top leaders. What's their style? Well, how do they like to be engaged? And demonstrating that and that can be challenging for a lot of executives that work with their board, right? Who's working with board members, they absolutely want to have an incredible executive presence. But the best ones are the ones that could deal with individual board members, where they're coming from, and in their style.

Suzie Price  18:23

Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Simon  18:24

And why do we want executive presence, right? If you want to have influence, and I haven't met a leader, yet that doesn't want to have more influence, executive presence gives you that, and it helps you fulfill your potential. Having incredible executive presence enables you to fulfill your potential, it makes the biggest difference. If you have executive presence, people are going to actively listen to you. Now they're gonna listen more intently. You remember the EF Hutton ads? When EF Hutton speaks everybody listens? You've got an executive presence when people are really listening to you, right? When they come to you, when all the problems begin to come to you, you've got something going for you.

Suzie Price  19:09

When I think about that, then I think of those categories. Okay, so you look the part, you are the part because you have substance and credibility, and then they trust you because of your substance credibility and character, I mean, all of those pieces, just, that's why that 360 and how you focus on it. You're the one who got me so excited about executive presence and that you could actually measure it so it just makes so much sense.

Shawn Simon  19:35

It does it so there is scientific rigor, and , one of my Motivators is  I'm a high theoretical, so I love the science, the education and understanding the whys and the hows behind things. So that assessment makes so much sense and what makes it  even more powerful is the fact that what you get out of it, it's accurate, and it's specific. So the action plan we develop, we have 100% confidence. It's the right action plan, because this is what we've detected, how you're being experienced.

Suzie Price  20:12

Yeah, hence the beauty of feedback. If every leader could get comfortable with feedback. I understand the hesitancy of it. But as a consultant I learned early on, it's like, I'm gonna get a boatload of feedback, therefore, my growth was very quick. Because you get immediate feedback as a consultant, if you go out to present, you find out whether it worked, or it didn't work. And so leaders get it too. But sometimes in a culture, they get kind of like, it's not as blaring, so if you can get more feedback, you are going to improve faster, just to be open with it. And then for getting the specificity, because we think, oh, I need to work on this, I need to go learn some more. And sometimes it's not about learning, it's about listening, or it's something much softer, that's going to have the biggest impact. 

Shawn Simon  21:01

Your points on wanting, and gaining feedback are so, so important. And in my early days, there was an author, Hank Weisinger, a PhD psychologist, and he wrote his book, The Critical Edge. And it was about encouraging everybody in the organization to demand constructive criticism and welcome it. And I  incorporate that in how I operate my teams. Always. We always want feedback, I always tell people, I'm in the biggest room and I never leave it. They look at you. What, you're the biggest room and you never leave it? I go, yes. That's the room for improvement.

Suzie Price  21:39

I love that.That is perfect. 

Shawn Simon  21:46

And that's been captured with Kaizen and people, constant learning, etc. But yeah, there's my Motivator, right? I'm a high theoretical. So, when you work with me, you're gonna have the best science. That's all I can say.

Suzie Price  21:59

And such a good good happy spirit. And you're very, very giving and very supportive. And I've enjoyed that with you over so many years.

Shawn Simon  22:08

Thank you. Well, you're the one that's supportive. I come to Suzie and Suzie's got it. Modified reports, custom reports. A second opinion and thought, interpretation all great.

Suzie Price  22:22

That's why I like doing this work. I get to work with great people, great people. So how do you know if you have executive presence? It's when people are coming to you? People listen, when you speak, what would be some other things? Of course, you can measure it. But what are some other telltale signs?

Shawn Simon  22:42

Yeah. So the leaders that have the greatest executive presence, they're the ones that are being talked about the talent management committees, succession planning, right? These are people that have runway, so if your boss is talking to you about this level, the next level. And obviously, you are the one, it's obvious that people look to you as a reference. And when you have executive presence, you could be a Director sitting in a room with a bunch of Vice President, Senior Vice Presidents. But if you're a Director with executive presence, you don't see any difference. You fit in with all the other executives. Then the hierarchy thing goes away. People that have really good executive presence. Yeah, we're in this together and your pin, or badge lapel. That's all fine and good. But we're about what's right for the business. And having that gravitas that you were talking about right? They're not going to be squashed or diminished by the fact that they are a lowly director, right? Yes.

Suzie Price  23:49

Yes, they're comfortable in the room. So how do people get that? Do you think people are born with that, we've got the different styles and all that we're gonna hit on that a little bit more, but you say that everybody can acquire that?

Shawn Simon  24:02

It can be developed. You're not born with executive presence it's cultivated over time. And it can depend on the individual. Some individuals just have to realize that they can be more assertive, right, or that their confidence isn't where it needs to be, for them to be able to tap what they have to bring to the table. So that's just one example. Right? The confidence to be able to insert yourself, then sometimes people aren't sure how to insert themselves because now they have this. They may have come from the military or there's cultural things where there's a hierarchy. 

Shawn Simon  24:05

Sometimes they want to overcome that and recognize that. So how else do you develop it? If you understand the best ways to communicate with the audience, given the scenario, and that was one of the reasons I love the Harvard Business Review article on having the four stances. It's recognizing where the audience is, and then recognizing your default stance, and do you need to be in your default stance? Or do you need to be in another stance that is more appropriate for that situation? These are subtle things that make the leader with executive presence have even more options and power.

Suzie Price  25:25

So that article we'll have in the show notes along with all the different books you're referencing, but it's a Harvard Business Review article that Shawn sent to me. And so I said, oh, we need to talk about this. And it's called "The Power of Options: Always Give Yourself Four Ways to Win" by David Noble, and Carol Kaufman. And so that gets to what we're talking about in regard to putting yourself in, , so often when we're presenting all we're thinking about is what we've got in our head and what needs to get on the table. And we don't, , we don't ever get past that and think about okay, what do they want to hear? What do they need to hear? How do they need to hear it? Is that what this the power of options?

Shawn Simon  26:05

It's really, it's taking a pulse on where is the audience now? Okay, what do they really need? So they put together a terrific grid that goes you see this, you want to do this, you don't want to do that. And what I loved about it is it connected me to DISC, because there's four positions. There's a lean in position, right? Taking an active stance on resolving the issue, right? Some people this is your current default, this would be my default, right? Take an active stance on resolving an issue. Actions in the stance include deciding, directing, guiding, challenging, and confronting. So that's pretty much my default. But the reality is, where they are with this given topic, they may need to just digest and contemplate and be thinking through, they don't need someone in a lean in stance. So the leader who has executive presence and savvy to understand where they're at, can shift to not leaning right? A lean back posture of just observing and analyzing. It's about being still and discipline yourself to create space for others. When do you create space for others? And then there may be situations where you need to lean with and collaborate on what's going on, versus take it in a different direction or your direction. There's a lot of DISC style in this. But what the authors have done, has expanded it to include what your environment looks like, in the room. Yeah, these are the dynamics. Now what do you do? And the best people adapt? So it's all about adapting to the right style, it's adapting to a lean in, a lean back, a lean with, or a don't lean. That's what they offer up, and they give specifics on what might be best. So my clients will practice. We'll begin to evaluate what's going on and begin to practice inserting themselves. You had asked, how do they demonstrate this executive presence if they don't have it? Well, understanding where the group is and how to best insert yourself, this will give them confidence on what might make the most sense, and how they engage.

Suzie Price  28:18

That makes sense. So the four options are lean in, lean back, lean with and don't lean. 

Shawn Simon  28:23


Suzie Price  28:24

And what's the don't lean mean? Is that where you're not doing anything you're supposed to not get to create anything, or...

Shawn Simon  28:31

It's more observing, analyzing and giving them time to come to a solution. So it's like all the ingredients for baking the cake are all together, we just need to let it cook and bake in the oven now for a little bit. Right. We don't need to be adding more ingredients to it. It's past that stage.

Shawn Simon  28:51

But so the actions include contemplating and visualizing and settling through a diaphragmatic just really relaxing and let it come together at that point.

Suzie Price  29:03

Yeah, that's not being so action oriented and I totally can see the style in there so lean in is high D style so somebody's a high D leader like to take action we got to do something now and then the lean back would that be maybe the.. What was the thing with that? What was...

Shawn Simon  29:19

That it's more of an analytical stance to collect and understand data actions include analysis so it's clearly this is the C.

Suzie Price  29:28

Yeah, high compliance which in the car analogy that is we say the train where you'd like point A to C you're analyzing and thinking. And then the don't lean... No, no the lean with collaborate that's the high I, let's do this together, and let's figure out the answers right really inclusive. High I the high influence and we always say with the vehicle there's an all terrain vehicle which is a big party, everybody's in the vehicle and they're making quick turns. And then the don't lean would be the S which is just thinking about it before they're going to speak.

Shawn Simon  29:59

Exactly, exactly. It's amazing how they took DISC, which is so powerful. And what they've done is they've given you an optic on how it might apply to your business situations, and more of a group kind of setting for how the leader might engage. So that's why I thought it was just, it was actually very helpful for two leaders that are looking to elevate their game they have they're looking to up their expertise. And this was a real, subtle, powerful way to do it.

Suzie Price  30:30

What's so interesting is, the thing with the DISC styles is whatever our natural style is, that's our strengths. And as you were saying, we could dial up like, so if somebody needed to be more assertive, they can dial that up with awareness and adapt their style but the other thing is, we get under stress. So if a leader was under stress in a meeting, we tend to dig into what's natural to us. So we get under stress. I'm very high D and very high I. So I would try to do lean in and lean with if I was nervous in the meeting without awareness without somebody helping me remember and practice, okay, wait a minute, you don't need to do either one of those because we lose our ability to adapt, when we're under stress, we just go to what's natural to us. So that's interesting.

Shawn Simon  31:16

I just made a connection from what you were saying. And right, so we have our natural that we have adapted. Really, if we're leveraging our adapted, as we're aware of what's happening in our environment, and we do it to be more effective at work, generally, this is a way to help you evolve your adaptive to be even more effective for yourself. Suzie, thank you for that.

Suzie Price  31:40

That's why we're a good team. We're always learning from each other. But yeah, it's so interesting because we think, we need to just do ourselves, and especially if you're trying to build credibility, you're the director of the room, and everybody's a VP, we just think, "Okay, I just need to do all what I'm really good at. And I'm maybe a little tense, because this is maybe my first time being in the meeting" and it's like, okay, without some awareness of reading the room. The other piece that this reminds me a little bit of is some work I did around relational presence. I'm a real busy body. So for me to learn to not be busy, to just be present, and calm myself down, and see what the situation calls for, , it was a great exercise. I did a podcast on it, I'll put it in the show notes. But yeah, that's what you're helping people do.

Shawn Simon  32:33

Yeah, let me add to what you just said there. There's a simple model that supports just what you said improving your presence is called the Argyris Ladder of Inference was developed by Chris Argyris, Psychologist in the 60s. But it's how the brain processes information to take action and make decisions. And it's a ladder. And what we find is, the more experienced the leader is, the faster we race up the ladder. Been there done that and seen that their references, their experiences, and they come to a, they already have an answer. And the problem is, when you race up that ladder, you're basically checking out. Your engagement, your EQ at that point is really not the best like,

Suzie Price  33:21

Because you're not reading the room anymore. 

Shawn Simon  33:23

Exactly. So what I do is, I ask leaders just to practice staying at the bottom of the ladder. So next time you're in a meeting, try and stay a little longer before you come to your conclusion, stay another minute or two. A little longer at the bottom, because you'll be surprised and I want you to capture when you do this, how many things you pick up you didn't know, or how many insights. So then that encourages them to stay there a little longer and it's amazing what they come back with. So one of the downsides, too, in today's society, we move so fast, we don't have a lot of time. We all do this. We race to our experience and our solutions. But we end up making more errors that way, so it's a way to be more failsafe. So that's a good one. I have another tool I like to use. It's called the Influence Equation. Everybody wants to have more influence. Do any leaders that you've worked with not want to have more influence?

Suzie Price  34:25

No, everybody wants it? Yes.

Shawn Simon  34:28

So this is a third grade equation. It's I equals P over R. I equals P over R. I is influence. So we know from math, right? If we want the I to grow, right, the P is is persuasiveness, persuasiveness over R and R is resistance. So to have more influence, we can argue harder, we can provide more data, we can provide our experience, we might even raise our voice, but you have to be able to persuade people so that's a given. Okay, but so you could do more of that. That's the numerator. So if you raise the numerator it is gonna get bigger, right? Because the numerator is going up, or you can reduce the denominator, the R, the resistance. So this is really what I like to challenge leaders to do, and a good time to do this is when you sense there's stress in the room or there's some conflict, instead of being more persuasive, ask some questions. Take a Socratic approach, reduce the resistance by seeking to understand where they're coming from, why they think that. So anyway, we got off a little tangent, it's all about influence. And this is an incredible executive presence. If you have executive presence, you are using these tools and models to help yourself and the organization. 

Suzie Price  34:28

Yes,  that's awesome. That is awesome. Okay, so I love that equation, too. And it is always about reducing resistance. So I always think about that whenever, like, we're going in and asking people to complete assessments in an organization, how can we make it so that they want to participate? Everything is thought of, so from the email that they get to the communication that they get, I mean, from the very beginning, so that they want to participate and can benefit. I never thought of it through that lens of your equation. Every piece of it is about everything we've been talking about, thinking about it from their perspective, what do they need to hear and know, to want to participate?

Shawn Simon  36:27

What's in it for me? That never goes away in that situation. When you're asking that, you also communicate, you understand what's top of their mind. You're gonna double your odds of getting it right.

Suzie Price  36:42

I like the ladder thing too, because it reminds me of, let's say you're at a store, and they see you and they make an assumption and they say, well, oh, you need this car. And you're like, you've moved up the ladder, because you've seen me before. You've seen people like me before. It's like, Yeah, you didn't really find out what I needed. That's the first thing that came to mind. When people make assumptions, and that's what leaders can do, because they go up that ladder really quick. Yeah, that's interesting. So let's go back to Motivators, and DISC style, and you already touched on it, so tell everybody what your top DISC style is, what your top behaviors are. And then a little bit about you. What that means about you and what you've learned from using that on yourself.

Shawn Simon  36:48

So I'm a high D, and I'm not a super high D, I think my number is like 76. And then I'm followed by an S, and an I. So my scores, they're, like, 66. So I'm a D, high D primary and secondary. I'm an S and an I. My C is like, way down there. My C is like a 7, okay? 

Suzie Price  37:52

For everybody, the scale goes from zero to 100, and whatever, you score there's no bad score. It's all good. It's a matter of how we use it, but it just tells us our communication preferences, just to remind you, okay.

Shawn Simon  38:05

Thank you. So my intensity on the D is not at 100 it's at 76, my intensity on the S and the I is 60, so it's visible. People can see those aspects of how I engage with people. And essentially, what I learned, one of the things I did throughout life in corporate America was, I used to always pair myself with an analytical, with a high C, so one of the uses is, compliment your style. That worked for me. So my right arm, I always had someone that was dotting the I's and crossing the t's. So I can move fast, be strategic and do the other things that I was doing. But they would really help me out. And so that's one simple application that everybody should really think about, when they have the opportunity to strengthen their overall approach to things. Also, I use this for a lot of teams that are coming together. It's probably one of the best team building exercises you can do early on to help people get an understanding of people's style and how they want to be engaged. And then a particular session that you use, that you offer Suzie, I love the ways to communicate, ways not to communicate. So it gives the boss, the supervisor, an opportunity to share, "Hey, when you tell me this, how I like it done, here are ways to avoid it. But more importantly, I want to hear how you want to be engaged." And then each person gets to kind of share their preferred ways to engage in and it's all style related. So it's all connected to understanding the DISC and leveraging. There's so many ways to use it, and then I'll ask leaders, are they ever aware of their overplaying one of their strengths? Are they too much of a D? What might that look like?

Suzie Price  40:00

So yeah, great questions. Yes. So the D is assertive, is the behavior you might see. The S is direct, but then also the S is the steadiness. Just kind of personable, easygoing, so if you have a mix, then the I is friendly and sometimes the life of the party. Yeah, optimistic.

Shawn Simon  40:30

We move fast, we want to talk. Yeah, I've learned if you're with an I, you better let them talk.  They have to talk. Then if you have an S. I think you and I had a conversation earlier before the call about the high S's right? They're not necessarily going to put it out there. They're gonna hold it in, they have emotions. And if you're working with an S, you really want to take time to ask them the question because they have an idea they have a thought about but they're not just going to throw it on the table like the D would or the I would ?

Suzie Price  40:35

Cuz people always describe, amiable. In the car or vehicle analogy, we always use the gondola. So if you think of a gondola in Italy, the guy or the gal who's driving the gondola is going at an easy pace, and it's very full, facilitative and of how can I help you kind of amiable, and describe a high C style somebody with a high C style. 

Shawn Simon  40:59

When you engage with a C, they're always gonna ask you a lot of questions, right? They're all about precision. They're all about accuracy and what doesn't go with precision and accuracy? High risk. They don't like a lot of risks. So that's something to keep in mind. But they're data driven. They want the numbers. When you deal with a C, you actually want to engage them with facts and figures. They're not necessarily gonna be interested in what happened with the New York Jets in their first game with Aaron Rodgers, they're gonna want to know the numbers. 

Suzie Price  42:00

Give him the logic and the details, right. Tell me if you find this when people are learning DISC, it is quick and easy to learn, so you can get the style just in the short conversation, people have gotten an idea of D-I-S-C, but the continuum of learning is, first, I need to understand that there's these dimensions and then I have to understand myself. And then the next evolution is okay, I got to understand when I'm overusing it. And then the next is, now I need to read other people's style. And then the mack daddy executive presence winner, is when you can go to the next step when leaders adapt their style for people. 

Shawn Simon  42:00


Suzie Price  42:00

It's a process and it's not as easy as it sounds.

Shawn Simon  42:02

Right. So it does start with what is my style? How am I inserting myself, how am I engaging with others? Am I over-playing it? It's having awareness, and then to adapt. I went ahead and brought people on that complimented me. So that's that. And then engaging with others taking time to really figure out where others are, are at is huge and then engaging with them in that way.

Suzie Price  43:11

Yeah, that's to me, that's the ticket right there. When you start doing that, you've now fully used DISC, sometimes it never goes beyond that. People just know the styles and just make assumptions. Okay, you're this and that's it. It's deeper than that.

Shawn Simon  43:25

You can actually have a lot of fun with the DISC. So you can use the gondola, you can use the All Terrain Vehicle. So you use those graphics, right? And have people and I encourage you, I also use the eagle the owl. I'm still using the Orthology approach the birds, 

Suzie Price  43:45

That's perfect. Whatever works! 

Shawn Simon  43:47

An eagle, an owl, a parrot or a dove, right? You have people just identify what they are aligned to. So the one slides got the descriptors, these are the characteristics. The next slide shows this, how you engage with them, this is their preferred style. And it's a fun thing. So even when I work with leaders, they have their DISC, but they may not know their colleagues', we could figure it out. And we engage them to figure it out as well. So that's actually a bit of fun. There's a different level of bonding and connectedness that happens and then if they're really interested, we get them the DISC assessment. 

Suzie Price  44:26

It helps people move from judgment. So the high C isn't judging the high D and the high D isn't judging the high C you're saying oh, you bring strengths, which is what you said. You bring strengths that I don't really have. It changes  the game.

Shawn Simon  44:41

Yeah. And the same with Motivators.

Suzie Price  44:45

Yeah. Talk about yours. What are your top two you said theoretical earlier and then what's your least interest? What's your number six. Do you recall?

Shawn Simon  44:53

Traditional. I'm all about breaking the rules. I don't stick with a pattern. If you're traditional, if that's your Motivator, there's a set way of doing things. There's rules and regulations, you might be clergymen, you might be a police officer, but there's a way you do things. So I like the way you do things, but I'm also open to a lot of other things. So that's really not my, I'm more open, I need the freedom. 

Suzie Price  45:18

Yeah, So that becomes a Motivator, because it's what you scored as your least interest. And your top is, is it theoretical and utilitarian or theoretical and individualistic?

Shawn Simon  45:27

It's individualistic, theoretical, and then utilitarian, but they're all pretty close. My top three are pretty close.

Suzie Price  45:34

So for everybody. There's six Motivators, and tell everybody what the difference is between Motivators and Style.

Shawn Simon  45:40

So Motivators really address why you do what you do. They're your biases, I always tell people more, you want to know Motivators, because it's your filter. Everybody has a filter, and filters are all good. But you have a filter, and my filter is utilitarian, I look for quid pro quo, I look for efficiencies, I look for resourcefulness. I look for an ROI. That's my filter, with utilitarian. My number one individualistic, the filter is I want to achieve things. I want to make things happen. I want to have an impact. So I know that those are my filters. And when I work, I work with an executive and his executive team. And what we did was we lined people up, okay, on a spectrum from one end to the other, picking a Motivator. And what we challenge people to do is, I want you to find the value that that Motivator might bring the traditional, or the high social. So everybody was, and they were, we had different things that were going on within a company, different issues, different challenges, different projects, different objectives. And we started to talk about how each filter might bring value to that. So they were going through a reorg. And in a reorg, you really want to have concern for people and the high social, they have just a natural ability to work and support that, and it was there was a project in philanthropy. So you weren't the people that really cared. And it's their passion to be involved in that. So the goal is to help recognize the value of all the Motivators, and understand yours. And it also, importantly, helps you understand when you're uncomfortable with when people are meeting, sometimes it may be because they're Motivators. And what you're doing is it's really not your top two, right, we strive to be in our top two. And when we fulfill those, we kind of look to fulfill the next one. But if I'm in a room, and it's all about the traditional social stuff, yeah, I'm not gonna feel that. That's not my filter. So, but having recognition of that is huge. And it also helps identify what's your best environment, knowing your Motivators helps you if you're looking for your next job, or you're evaluating different postings. Use your Motivators to understand how they are going to be impacted. What's the right environment for you? Yeah, so that's excellent. I love how you call it and talk about it through filters. That's an excellent way to, to make the point of that. So let's go through it real quick, what does the high theoretical want? They want to learn. They're always seeking new information. They're gonna go to the next seminar. They're gonna read the next book, they're gonna read the next Harvard Business Review article. They're all about seeking, okay, that's where they're at. They want to learn,

Suzie Price  48:39

They want to learn. Utilitarian, you mentioned what you like, you're both theoretical and utilitarian. But let's take that one utilitarian.

Shawn Simon  48:46

Yeah no, I'm about efficiencies and no waste and return on investment, and being resourceful. So, the economics of things are important for utilitarian. So you see a lot of CFOs may have this as their top one of their top two Motivators, right?

Suzie Price  49:06

We say 82% of all top salespeople have it in their top Motivator to do this and get better. Yeah, CFO is perfect too. So individualistic?

Shawn Simon  49:15

Well, that's all about power making things happen. Making a difference. It's driving change, leading change. That's typically what you see there. So they're gonna be competitive, right? It's competitiveness, too, right? If you're listening, it's all relative to everybody else and you want to make a bigger difference.

Suzie Price  49:36

Yeah. And if you're comfortable being in the spotlight. Okay, so then you mentioned traditional regulatory, what's that? Let's just restate it for people.

Shawn Simon  49:47

If that's your kind of Motivator, you believe in a way to do things. There's a way to do that. There are standards, there's a process. There's something that's established as rules and regulations. There's a way to do it. And that's the way it should be done. They're not necessarily open. The downside is that they won't be open to new gizmo, right? New way to get it done. We've been doing it this way and it works. They stay with the tried and true. That's what they like, Okay?

Suzie Price  50:23

How about social altruistic?

Shawn Simon  50:25

Well, social I always look at social as they're generally really caring, they're all about the people. There's an analogy, high social, if there's hungry people, they're gonna give them fish. They're gonna feed him fish. That's a social, whereas utilitarian, he was here, he's gonna teach him how to fish. But they just care so much, right? That might be a nurse, clergy, high social, yes, that's kind of where they're at. 

Suzie Price  50:59

And let's do the sixth one aesthetic. 

Shawn Simon  51:04

My better half, she's got aesthetic. And she just notices things like you walk in a room and notice the wainscoting.She'll notice the fiber on the curtains, you'll notice the nuances. And I'm like clueless I had no idea. They notice their environment, harmony. , it's like another sense.

Suzie Price  51:25

I always say they're very intuitive because they see the big picture and I tend to compartmentalize so high aesthetic will help me like, oh, pull back a little bit.

Shawn Simon  51:38

To me, it's like an extra sense they have with that one because I really don't have that filter. It is not like my powerful filter.

Suzie Price  51:46

Great going through that and so we kind of anybody who's listening now has kind of an eye to you like to do both sciences, and and you do EQ, because they each measure something different. You got the Style, that's how I like to communicate, the Motivators is what's their filter, and then EQ is their ability to relate to others. It's a part of executive presence, isn't it?

Shawn Simon  52:03

Oh, absolutely. So thank you for that. Because I often work with top flight leaders and they get triggered, okay. And when they get triggered, they don't behave the way they should be. They might say things they shouldn't be saying. So their restraint. So we use self awareness, self regulation, and some leaders, there are situations that are triggers for them, and they don't operate the best way. So that's important. And then there's a social regulation, and social awareness as well ability to shape, and recognize where the group is at. Then I always tell people, I say, look, you get hired for your IQ, you get promoted on your EQ. Okay? 

Suzie Price  52:59

Yes. Yes

Shawn Simon  53:00

EQ is what's going to make the difference, right. And it's hard to have good executive presence without having good EQ. Because if you have a good EQ, you're reading the audience. You're reading yourself, you're managing yourself. And it all starts with self awareness. All leadership starts really with your self awareness. 

Suzie Price  53:28

I was looking at your bio, I mean, I've known you since 2015. And I knew that you were in the pharmaceutical industry, and you were in sales, and then leadership, and you were an executive. How did you end up in coaching? So I was reading your bio again, I'm like, he is a great coach. But how did you get here?

Shawn Simon  53:45

I started out as a rep, was a manager, and then a Director or Senior Director a Vice President, Senior Vice President, and got to sit in on all talent management succession planning committees. But in all those roles, when I became a manager, I used to evaluate myself on how many people I got promoted, how many people I developed. As a director, I did the same thing. So at the end of the year, right, I have sales objectives, and our team's blew them away. But I really evaluated myself. criteria was how many people that I get promoted that I develop. Then I became a vice president, I developed a mantra. My mantra was, for my directors and the managers, we are the organization's quarantine. And they looked at me like what was the organization's quarantine? Just like the Yankees have a team they're developing people to get into the majors? I want us to be able to feed training, marketing, analytics, operations, medical, with our team. That's it. So that has always been my mantra. Okay. And one of the last changes in corporate America, I know a new CEO came in, he wiped out the senior leadership team, and I said  what, I think I'm gonna do something else now. And I've always been about developing people. So coaching was just my passion. I realize all these years, I've been a frustrated coach. How great is that? Yes.  So I'm leaning into really what my passion is helping leaders be the best they can be. So that's how I got here. And I'm loving it.

Suzie Price  55:27

So yeah, so it's been eight years now.

Shawn Simon  55:30

Well, longer than that, almost 10 now that I've been coaching. Actually I have been coaching all my life, but that was more performance coaching. And the coaching I'm doing now has this performance coaching in it, but it's more about helping leaders gain insights as to what they want to work on, and the things they can work on. That's really such a shift from the performance coaches more about helping them with closing, selling clinical skills. Now it's more about helping them understand where they want to be stronger, where they recognize that they can be stronger, and then having them select the best options to get there.

Suzie Price  56:20

And you've got a full tool chest of amazing insights, you've got the experience, and then you have all these great tools. That's awesome.

Shawn Simon  56:29

I have my Power Tools for Leaders. Power Tools for Leaders, and probably about 40 different references, models proven to help boost the leader's ability to achieve the things they want to achieve. It's custom, that's custom for each leader. So at the end, if I was working with Suzie, you'd have a deck that was built specifically over the course of our sessions for you that you can use for life. For sustainability, for continued practice.

Suzie Price  56:58

Yes, that's fantastic. Yeah, I know, I'm always energized. We have conversations because you've got another idea or another way to express it, we just always learn from each other. So it's, this has been great. I want to go with some final questions. One, I want to get your wakeup eager tips. Besides being in an RV and in the woods, tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now for your wake up eager. So a wake up eager is, I was sad that the sun went down and I'm happy that the sun came up because I'm excited about my days. Mind Body Spirit, what are some top things that you personally are doing?

Shawn Simon  57:37

I know, you saw, I'm essentially in the woods here, so for myself and my mind I like to sit here and watch the birds on my bird feeders. I enjoy the visuals of the outdoors, the trees and that, and I like to sit down at the ocean and relax. So, , from my mind I do those things. I also like cooking. It's therapeutic for me. 

Suzie Price  57:37

Oh, I didn't know you were a cook. 

Shawn Simon  58:07

Oh, yeah. No, I just made eggplant parm the other day, and I made it from the eggplants that I grew in my garden. So 

Suzie Price  58:13

Oh, wow. That's cool. 

Shawn Simon  58:16

And these are these baby eggplants, not the big ones to see in the store, so they're a little sweeter in a plant. But anyway, so you asked what I do. Those are things that I do to stay mindful, I putz in the garden. Watch, my birds. I'm an ornithologist on the side. I identify birds. And now we're getting into almost a migration time of the year where you'll have different species coming down from Canada on their journey to Central America and South America. So your bird feeder, you never know what you're gonna see out there.

Suzie Price  58:50

How about body and spirit? Anything you'd add there? What you do for physical health and then for family and a sense of community.

Shawn Simon  58:57

So, the band Queen? They have a song, I ride my bike, I ride my bike. I ride my bike. I ride my bike, and I go long distances on that for physical and I belong to a gym and all that but

Suzie Price  59:12

The bike is the piece.

Shawn Simon  59:14

The bike is really it. And  I've always been involved with the community. I like to do things at the soup kitchen. Show up and spend some time there helping others. Years back I brought an entire sales team to New Orleans after Katrina, to help them rebuild musician village. Because after Katrina, they all left and there's no place for them to live. They went to Houston and all around. Anybody who goes down in New Orleans, and you go to Musician Village, you'll see those homes, Habitat for Humanity and my team helped build half of them. So when they came back they had a place to bring back to the culture of New Orleans. So

Suzie Price  59:56

Wow, that was big. That's amazing.

Shawn Simon  59:59

One other thing I used to do is ride my bicycle for the American Diabetes Association but it wasn't a bicycle, it was a unicycle. I used to get people to sign up to pay me to ride. Well, how far do you think you can ride a  unicycle?

Suzie Price  1:00:13

I don't know. How far can you ride a unicycle? That's like the big wheel. Right? You sit on the little seat? Is that what a unicycle is? Or is it a little wheel?

Shawn Simon  1:00:20

Just one wheel. It can be a big wheel, but this is just one wheel. And no one would believe you go far enough. And I used to go literally 17 -18 miles. And I raised $1500 to $2300 because no one would believe that I could go that far, so that was another thing I used to do. 

Suzie Price  1:00:41

That's cool. Learning all kinds of things. I'm seeing you on a unicycle? How cool is that? Okay, last couple of wrap up questions. What advice would you give your 25 year old self?

Shawn Simon  1:00:52

I would recommend that they go ahead, if they haven't done so already, and get an understanding of themselves through the three sciences. One science being style? What is their style? The second science being what are their Motivators? What are their filters? So they instead themselves and others, and also the third signs of either their emotional intelligence getting baseline scores as to where they are there. Because that is foundational for all your future engagements at work, family, wherever you go. I would recommend that as a foundation for your self awareness and growth.

Suzie Price  1:01:31

That's great advice. If you could put a billboard anywhere for the world to see where would you put it and what would it say?

Shawn Simon  1:01:39

Well, I would put the Billboard at all airports, okay, around all airports. And the billboard would say something like, You're making a journey, make your journey with the TriMetrix EQ.

Suzie Price  1:01:57


Shawn Simon  1:02:00

And for those that don't know what that is, the TriMetrix is the foundation for a great journey in life. The three sciences Style, Motivators, and emotional intelligence. Yeah, that's what I would do.

Suzie Price  1:02:13

Yes. I love that spoken like a high theoretical, utilitarian, executive coach. It's beautiful. Okay, so closing, what advice or wisdom would you want everybody to remember from today around either an executive presence and power options, if they were to take away one last thing, what would you want to impress upon them?

Shawn Simon  1:02:35

I would say make sure you understand your style. It starts with understanding your style, and leveraging all the DISC aspects that we went over. What is our style and having awareness of your executive presence? And what are the areas that you can lean into to be even more effective, right, are you aware of what others are telling you, and are there practices you can develop to grow your executive presence? Again, you're not born with it, but you can absolutely develop it. So that's the takeaway you can develop it. And there are a myriad of tools, resources and proven models to help you step into your next level of success. And I would encourage everyone to be thinking about that, that's so inclined, and wants to take on more responsibility and have greater influence and impact and the companies they work at, or the companies they run or the teams they lead.

Suzie Price  1:03:38

That's wonderful. Yes. So how do people best reach you? We'll have the show notes and have the information in there, but just for the end of this conversation, what's the best place to reach out to you? 

Shawn Simon  1:03:48

They can call me directly on my cell 215-620-1475. They can email me, or they can go to my website, But I'm personal, very personable, you can text me and say who you are. And I'll pick up your call. And I give everybody a free one hour consultation. So I understand what their situation is, and help them on that call, complimentary understands the immediate steps that they might be able to take to achieve what it is they want to do. Right? Oh, thank you. Suzie. They can always ask you too, where's that guy, Shawn Simon? 

Suzie Price  1:06:50

Where in the world is Shawn Simon he's either in Naples or he's in New Jersey or somewhere in between. With some birdwatcher binoculars around his neck perhaps. I didn't know that was something you did. Thank you for being a Priceless friend and client all these years and colleague and thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast.

Suzie Price  1:05:02

I hope you enjoyed the energy and the discussion today with Shawn. Some of my favorite thoughts, I love when he says "I always tell people, I'm in the biggest room and I never leave it. And he said, they look at him. And he says, what you're in the biggest room and you never leave it. And he said, Yep, that's the room for improvement." So his fun way of saying, hey, we always have room to grow, we always have opportunities to become more of the best version of ourselves. 

So that is a lifelong learner. That is somebody who's open to learning and open to development. We're at the top of the game, there's another ring to go in a way of openness. And so I love that the room for improvement is the biggest room. We did talk about the lean in. And the four power options Lean in, lean back, lean with, and don't lean, and the Harvard Business Review article. That article is in the show notes at And I really liked that. 

I'm so familiar with adapting and using the DISC and the Motivators trying to think about what is happening in the room, what does this person need, and want from me in the environment, but I loved tagging what he's talking about from that article. Sometimes we need to lean in. So I need to be problem solving, I need to lean back, I need to ask questions, I need to collaborate. And sometimes we don't need to make any kind of decision, we need to give it time. And so it is interesting to think about that. 

And remember that you have options. And it's always what we talked about adapting. And that is don't just put it in one gear. And that's the power often of knowing what your strengths are. Because sometimes we like that gear. So if we have a tendency to do one of these options, that's the one we want to stay in. And the situation often calls for something different. So that's very brilliant. And I hope you'll be able to use that to read the article. And then in the handout that he provided with, it's a PDF and it has more of the description and the grid of those four options plus many other things around the DISC. And when we talk about the birds the way he uses it, describe birds, how I use it, describe it by the vehicles that you're driving, and just a lot more information, everything we talked about all the books that he mentioned, the ladder book, and those in the models are in the PDF that he provided. 

So go get that at That's where the show notes are. And if you would like to get a DISC and Workplace Motivators Assessment, or maybe do TriMextrix EQ, be sure to follow up with Shawn. His contact information is there. You can also reach out to me I can always help you with different assessments as well.  As a hint or a heads up episode 92 the next episode, we're talking about Workplace Motivators, and I'm going to be giving away 50 Workplace Motivators Assessments to the first people who requested and we're going to do it as a way to build reviews or asking people if you will leave us a review, we will send you this complimentary assessment, it's $150 value. Plus I have a bunch of tools that help you debrief it and you could share that and use that for your own growth and development. 

So heads up! Next episode, make sure you're subscribed to our podcast wherever you get podcasts, subscribe to Wake Up Eager Workforce. And then we also have an app and we would love a review. So if you do give a review, save it, take a snapshot of it and send me a note we'll get you a complimentary Workplace Motivators Assessment and access to the tools we got a page that has all those tools about how to manage managing tips, and you had put more gas in your tank as so much there. So you can do that.  If you're not sure how to leave a review, go to, and we explain it there. The reason we want reviews is to heighten some visibility to the work when people are looking for tools and resources and want to get to know the people that we're highlighting and the topics that we're highlighting, we want to make sure people can find us. 

We'd love to know that you're listening and you're interested to check out all of our episodes go to That's where you'll see the latest and then a list of all the all the episodes so check us out. Thank you for being here today. I appreciate Shawn sharing his talents with us. We just know so many interesting good people who are doing good work in the world and it's very fun to highlight them here and expose them to you.  If I can help you in any way, reach out to me It's my email. I'd be happy to talk to you or help you in any way and just go forward and create your wake up eager life. Create a wake up eager workforce. It's much more fun to wake up, to be happy when you wake up, happy when the sun rises and a little sad when the sun goes down because you've had such a great day. That's kind of the objective or vision of what we're talking about here about being involved in foods and enjoying your life, enjoying your work helping your employees do the same. So let's all create that together. All right. I look forward to talking to you next time. We're coming up soon with another episode. We'll see you there, take care.

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