Suzie Price: [00:00:00]
Today we're talking about hiring manager mistakes and best practices. I can't wait to share it with you. Michael. Hit it!
Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host who is helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price.
Suzie Price: [00:00:38]
Hi there. My name is Suzie Price and I am your host of the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, where we cover everything related to helping you and the employees in your organizations. Build a high commitment, low drama, wake up eager workforce and bottom line in our business at Priceless Professional Development and within this podcast, we share information related to helping you make good decisions about your people, helping you create a wake up, eager workforce, help you create a wake up, eager life, wake up eager teams, be a wake up, eager leader and the wake up eager is this idea of things are running smoothly. People are in the right place doing the right things. You're spending your days doing things that are a great match to your strengths. The people on your team are spending their days using their strengths, and you just have this higher quality life. And so Wake Up Eager isn't just about I'm happy in the morning. It's that I'm happy about my life because I'm doing the things that help me feel fulfilled and feel on purpose. And that's what we're about in our business. We want you to get the business productivity. We want you to get the personal productivity. We want you to get the business satisfaction, and we want you to get the personal satisfaction.
Suzie Price: [00:01:54]
So we focus on and provide tools for the entire employee life cycle. And you'll hear today in this episode where we're talking about hiring. And then there's some more DISCussion about how the same tools are used to help teams communicate, help coach people. And that is what we're very excited about doing. This is episode number 94, and the title is Hiring Manager Mistakes and Best Practices. There's a part one and a part two, and the DISCussion is with Huff Logue, who is an executive recruiter, and he owns his own business for many, many decades. And what we're going to cover today together is the top mistakes hiring managers make best practices for interviewers as the benefits of using three sciences. So we talk a bit about DISC, Workplace Motivators and acumen, how to use those three sciences, what they are, how you use them in hiring and coaching, and share some real examples. So if you've thought about using assessments or you're currently using TriMetrix, this will be of interest to you. We DISCuss retention and engagement best practices, and at the end we have a nice DISCussion about finding peace and making wise decisions so you can find the show notes. That's where we have links to everything we discussed links to to contact our guest, Huff Logue at pricelessprofessional.com/hiringmanagermistakes.
Suzie Price: [00:03:18]
pricelessprofessional.com/hiring manager mistakes. That's all one word, lowercase. That's where you can get the show notes and all the links. You can also also find this podcast or subscribe to it anytime by going any to any podcast app and typing in Wake Up Eager Workforce. Let me tell you about our guest today. It's Huff Logue. Huff Logue. L-o-g-u-e is an unusual name, so I want to make sure you're getting who this is and how he spells his name. He's been in recruiting and hiring top performers for more than three decades. He's only had five mismatches from using the patented process he uses. And it's the same process that we use in TriMetrix. He uses this process as a full-time executive recruiter, putting people in top seats in organizations. He's worked for $5 million to $5 billion companies like SAP, Oracle, Accenture, as well as hundreds of smaller private equity backed organizations. He started two recruiting firms and is currently CEO of ExecuLinks. So as I mentioned, he performs executive level, retained search and his workplace motto and we discussed this today is people are hired for what they know but let go for who they are. So tune in now for this great discussussion with Huff. Thank you for being here.
Huff Logue: [00:04:39]
Glad to be here.
Suzie Price: [00:04:41]
Appreciate it. We're going to jump right in. You are definitely an expert. More than three decades of experience and doing all levels of recruiting, especially at the executive level. Talk about the top mistakes hiring managers make. What do you see? What's the impact and what should they do instead?
Huff Logue: [00:04:58]
Yeah great question. And I see this a lot. There are a lot of great executives out there, but when it comes to interviewing, they're not all equal. And probably one of the biggest mistakes I see is that they do more talking than listening. They do more sharing than getting information and quantifying or qualifying the candidate. And even if they do ask questions, which they will, they will have a tendency to get kind of the basic answers they want, or their top two questions they think are great. And then the switch flips and they go, I like this person. They jump into sell mode or they don't continue to qualify. So they don't do a thorough job of qualifying the candidate. That's probably one of the biggest mistakes I see.
Suzie Price: [00:05:37]
Yes. Oh my gosh, that is singing to the choir here. We're on the same page. That's why we're friends and we work together all these years or know each other. So they get excited, they get in sell mode and then what's the impact now? So they've met somebody and just lay it out for people who maybe don't do interviewing all the time. They met somebody, they decide they like them, then what happens?
Huff Logue: [00:06:00]
Well, it turns into the player they thought they were hiring really is a B or C player because the qualification don't match to the job, and the individual is just a weak performer or is not managed properly. It just wasn't a fit. As I say many times, people are typically hired for what they know and they're let go for who they are, which has nothing to do with what's on their resume. And that's why I'm a big proponent of using the Assessments in the process, because if you look at any job description, it'll have quantifiable skills, you know, have you worked in this industry, have you sold to this industry, or have you managed this type of operation? And then we're also looking for people that have great time management skills, or they have great personal and communication skills. And always when I look at job descriptions and it says great oral and written communications, I'm thinking, well, if you're an orator or a journalist, that'd be great. But for whatever reason, that always gets into the job description, right? So they basically find out that they have someone that is not even a fit for the job.
Suzie Price: [00:06:58]
They don't ask the questions that are going to get to that and they're not measuring it. Talk a little bit about that process. We both use it. Talk a little bit about how that process helps you measure, what I call, those the intangible skills. When you used to say, and I think you introduced it to me, hire for background fire for attitude or it's kind of what you're saying, for who they are, how do you find out who they are and talk about how this process really reveals that?
Huff Logue: [00:07:26]
So before I answer that question, I want to back up to an issue that I think is not being observed enough or aware in what's happening in the actual hiring process, and that is if you start to look for someone with specific knowledge, skills or experience or what I call KSEs, that's great. But if you don't know what you're looking for in the role to begin with, then how are you going to know even which questions to ask to quantify to see if they fit? And there's a real problem with job descriptions in the marketplace today. People don't know how to put them together. They need help. And even when they get them put together, they don't follow them clearly. So I do believe there's a huge value in taking time to really understand the role and what it needs to do and what kind of results need to happen. But to get back to answering your question is, if you think about the bullet points, it might be on a job description or your checklist. If you're wanting to look for somebody with specific intangible skills, you can come up with quantifiable questions. I actually use a spreadsheet in a grid. Here's what my client is looking for here. Is it knowledge or experience that might fit into or be a clue as to whether or not they would have that experience? And then third, what is the corresponding question? So if I'm talking about time management and that's really important, or let's say presentation skills in a position that's customer facing or internal customers, whatever the case may be, if I'm looking for presentation skills and I'm going to look for somebody that has done presentations before and can ask the question in the interview, have you done a presentation? So they can say, sure, I've done lots of presentations.
Huff Logue: [00:09:05]
Great. Well, what I want to know is how many presentations do you do a year? How long are your presentations? Who do you present to? Who prepares your presentations? What do you like best about presentations? Where do what do you like least about them? I'm going to dig deeper and as we use the TriMetrix tool and we come up with the competencies for the job and let's say presentation skills is in the top six. And what's nice about that is it generates a series of questions for you anyway. So if presentation skills are important in the job, then spend time really probing and digging into that and don't get excited and move on to the next one until you've really dug deeper. It's really going another level. Does that answer the question?
Suzie Price: [00:09:46]
Yes, yes, and tell a little bit about what TriMetrix is? I talk about it all the time. I want to hear your explanation of it and a little bit about the process.
Huff Logue: [00:09:55]
I'm going to make a bold statement. And that bold statement is that TriMetrix can change the entire shareholder value and stock value of a company, because companies are focused on getting a return, making a profit, and they do this by making a great product and giving it to customers that are very happy and passionate about it. They're more passionate than your competitors about your product, and there's a direct correlation between happy, productive employees and how they interface with the customers in the marketplace, and getting the customers happy means having very happy, productive employee. And we've all seen the Gallup survey that's somewhere around two thirds or more of employees are not engaged and fully engaged. And so with the TriMetrix, again, we go back to people are typically hired for what they know that's on the resume. They're let go for who they are. There's not enough quantification of who they are and the number one reason people come to me from companies is not because they couldn't do the job or didn't do the job, it's because they weren't a fit for their manager, for the culture. That was just totally missed. And so there's the turnover and all that. And so getting back to answering the TriMetrix, what it is, is a patented process that allows the job to speak.
Huff Logue: [00:11:09]
If the role could tell us what a superior performance look like in this role, and how are we going to measure it. And so by doing that 90-minute session with a client and the subject matter experts that can participate in it, these are individuals that are in the job, that have been in the job that interfaced with the job that know what this role has to get done. And so they provide the content. We walk away from that 90 minute session with the top six plus or minus results that have to be achieved for superior performance. And here's the beauty. The team is unified, they're clear and they're focused. It removes any biases about think they should have this kind of experience or this kind of background. And instead we're all on the same page. And that's important in the interview process because it also sends a message to candidates. These people are unified. They're clear. They're on the same page, not heard this from one manager and heard this from another. I'm a little confused about if they really know who they are. Right.
Suzie Price: [00:12:00]
Huge point about the process that gets missed. So let's just put a pin in that and for a minute and highlight it. Huge, huge point about getting the team together to discuss the superior performance attributes. What's needed going through that process is huge game changer in regard to what the candidate experience is, and it keeps them focused during the interview. On the right things. The actual hiring managers focus on the right things. So well said. Okay. Keep going. Don't stop.
Huff Logue: [00:12:28]
Yeah, and the beauty of this is all of the intangibles that are on the job description or they think is important. Someone that shows up on time or that has great people skills or great communication, all these things. Well, you can spend time trying to quantify that, but unless you're an industrial psychologist, you're probably going to miss it. You may think you're great at gut feel and checking people out, which I think is another hiring mistake. Gut feeling, emotion, keep that somewhere else. But you've got this tool that will measure, mean we're measuring 55 different attributes, and we're able to get at all those intangibles. We're peeling back the onion of this individual and looking at that. But we have going back to the job. So we create this benchmark of what superior performance looks like in the job. And now we go out and search for candidates that have the right knowledge, skills and experience. Because of course, if they're selling financial services to insurance companies or whatever the case may be, you want to get someone that has some knowledge there because of the learning curve that would be there without that experience or knowledge or skills. And so then once we get that, then we give the candidate the Concentric Assessment that maps to the job benchmark, so we basically overlay these two reports together. We create a third report or a gap analysis, so I can see in advance before I even spend time with them how well they are at presentation skills or how well they are at this.
Huff Logue: [00:13:46]
It's not a panacea, but it's a great tool and the way I like to describe it. Here's an example. There are a lot of tools out there and people use them. I like the TriMetrix tool because I think it goes much deeper than the other tools. And there are a lot of tools out there that I call "curb appeal". So let's say, for example, you're going to shop for a house. You put the family in the car, the dog in the car, you go house shopping, you pull up to this house and pull up to the curb and he goes, looks great. You turn to your spouse and you say, let's buy it. Well, that's not what you really do. Instead you say, well, that looks good, let's go inside. And see what the floor plan looks like does it meet our needs? That's another dimension. So now we're looking at another dimension of someone. Then you say, well, you know, let's look at the community and see if this has the right feel and amenities and things that we're looking for. And that's another dimension. And then you hire an inspector. That's another dimension who comes in and looks at the systems, looks between the walls, underneath the foundation. And now what you have is more information and data that you cannot see in the interview, or discern in the interview or guess at the interview. So you're putting yourself through a lot of extra work that you don't have to for all those intangibles.
Suzie Price: [00:14:48]
Oh, that's a great analogy. What you just did in that analogy, if you didn't catch it while you're listening to our wonderful listeners, didn't catch it is you just described what TriMetrix takes you through, which is what does the person look like, describes their behavior? What are the Motivators as you were going in, what are the attributes? And then the inspection is the comparing it to the benchmark. I mean that was that's a great analogy.
Huff Logue: [00:15:15]
Yeah. I think one of the things that's important to note here is that there are a lot of good tools out there. If you use some tool versus no tool, that's better than not at all. The reason I like the TriMetrix is because the level of credibility with eight independent surveys associated with the predictability of 91.5% in its ability to predict hiring a superior performer, again, it's not a tool. It's not a panacea, but it's a really good tool. And so a lot of tools are just curb appeal and they make assumptions about what the inside looks like. They make assumptions about what the systems are like. TriMetrix is actually measuring all of that. Yeah.
Suzie Price: [00:15:48]
And I think the magic is what I get. I've gotten really into and there's a lot of podcast episodes related to this is that dimension that measures the personal skills that we're talking about, the axiology of the science. So those of you who have heard other podcasts, we talk about that. That's the science that measures what's under the hood. I mean, the magic is and what makes it different. And what I've heard people say is that piece, plus all the other parts and the fact that you can compare it to the job and then the whole what you said, the gift of getting the interview team on the same page just by going through the process.
Huff Logue: [00:16:20]
Yeah, I think there's a story here about how you and I met. We met at the back of a conference at a table where no one has a name associated, where they put people who showed up late or whatever. And so we start talking about this. This is 20 years ago, and we start talking and I go, wow, this is really cool. I'd love to bring this into my search process. And, you know, we started working together on a couple searches, and you had me take the assessment and I took the assessment and you said, wow, Huff, your behaviors are perfectly aligned with what you did. I can see why you're successful when I look at your Motivators and what drives you and what the job rewards. Again, hand in glove fit. When I look at your competencies, you actually have higher capacity than you know. And that's common for CEOs that have to wear multiple hats and be competent in more things than just one. And then you said, however, you're confused about who you are and it's affecting your performance. And I remember sitting at this restaurant, my jaw hit the table. You probably heard it, I said, how does she know this about me? And what you didn't know is at the time I was going through, after 18 years of marriage, what was a long separation and a subsequent divorce that I did not want. But if you looked at me externally. So let's say you were trying to hire me at that time and you looked at just my DISC or behaviors, you would have said, hey, great guy. Love him. He's dynamic. Look at his appeal, curb appeal. But at that time I was only able to work about an hour a day. I was so dysfunctional. I was distraught because I didn't want a divorce, but it was one of those true dilemmas. If I stayed in it, it was bad. If I left, it was bad. And so now I'm 16 years later, remarried. Wonderful wife. Great match. You gave her the TriMetrix. We're a fit.
Suzie Price: [00:18:00]
Yes you are, and you applaud her strengths all the time. I always see that. And they're different from yours. That's the other thing is, it happens in personal relationships and on teams is now you can understand the differences in a way. If you talk about diversity, this is diversity of talent, diversity of strengths and acknowledging all the differences. So that's what you do. Like you just said we're going to talk about your top Motivators. Your lowest Motivator is Aesthetic which is your least interested in the beauty and interest of things. And then Lisa has a pretty high Aesthetic. Funny example.
Huff Logue: [00:18:31]
About that. We go down to Callaway Gardens, a place down here south of Atlanta, and I'm rushing to get down there and make it less than 2.5 hours, and we pull into the main gate. I'm like, okay, we can get there and get in before the discount ends or whatever it was. And she's stopped and she goes, do you see those beautiful flowers? And I'm like, where? And of course, this is a huge entrance and it's like 75ft long, but nothing but flowers. It's bigger than the road. Didn't even see it.
Suzie Price: [00:18:56]
Yeah, that's exactly it. I always see you appreciating her. We're connected on Facebook and his wife is named Lisa. I don't know if I said that, but she's always showing pictures of flowers and that high Aesthetic is this interest in beauty. And and so in the low Aesthetic doesn't mean you don't like beauty, but it's just not your top priority. Your filter isn't through the lens of something that's beautiful, and you're not too worried about chaos because you're just doing stuff which like which you represented with the hey, I got to get down there and let's see what time is it. And that's part of that Utilitarian which is being really practical.
Huff Logue: [00:19:31]
And if you didn't know I was Theoretical and didn't see the books behind me, you'd miss it.
Suzie Price: [00:19:34]
We'll drill down on that a little bit but just couldn't help but catch that as you talked about the differences. So I'm so glad that you're using the tool now with all your clients. And just to summarize some of that, what are some of the benefits of this process? We've talked a little bit about them, but I kind of want to capture them. The benefits of using these your services and these tools, how does it all really benefit your clients? What do they say? What's the end result?
Huff Logue: [00:20:05]
Great question. There's so many benefits but I'll pick a few that come to mind real quick. First of all, and think hiring executives and managers need to hear this, is even though they think they know what they want when they sit in a room and have this what starts out as a brainstorming session, so everybody gets to kind of put their input into it. And then we have friendly debate and discussion and then we prioritize, we eliminate. Then we prioritize and we walk away, like I said with the top six. Plus or minus results that have to be achieved in the roles for superior performance. And we've got the metrics associated with how we're going to measure it. And so the common feedback I get from that is because, wow, this was really good. And a lot of times things will come up that I didn't even think about. Or more importantly, they might realize we thought it was more important that someone was great with presentation skills in this role, but it's really not. It's more important that they're great with analysis and decision making, because that's really the core of what we do.
Huff Logue: [00:21:03]
Presentation reporting. So they kind of flip flop the priority. So now they've got you know that's just an example. The other thing that it does is it gives them the questions they need to ask so they can probe deeper. I mean it does it for you, so why not use a tool like that? It's like a no brainer. The other thing that it does, it's very important in the process is when candidates take the assessment. Now it's not a five minute assessment. It takes 45 minutes or so because it goes deeper. And this is when companies have issues with recruiting, you know, attracting and recruiting and even retention. I'll talk about that in a second. But most of the feedback I get from candidates is, wow, if a company will go through this process, they really are trying to get the fit right. And they and this is the kind of organization I want because that's one of the top things, especially on the younger generation's top list about his culture. Is this a fit for me?
Suzie Price: [00:21:55]
Huff Logue: [00:21:56]
So we get that kind of feedback.
Suzie Price: [00:21:58]
That's yeah. So candidates don't push back on it?
Huff Logue: [00:22:01]
Some of them they do. You have to introduce it because people are a little intimidated sometimes. So you have to I don't want to say sell it. You just need to introduce it and say, hey, listen, it's an assessment. It's not right or wrong. It's not good or bad. Just answer it from your heart and put the answers down that you want a good fit for you. This is and will give feedback to the candidates on the assessment. And when I do that, 85% of the time is an average. Sometimes it's 90, sometimes they say 100. Not always. It's rarely below 70%. When I say what percent accurate do you've read the report? What percent level of accuracy do you think this reflects who you are and this? Oh 85%. So they're and they're like, how do you know this about me? So that raises the level of confidence and trust and the effort you're trying to do. So if you've got somebody that's talking to your competitor and they're talking to you and they go through this process, you're already head and shoulders above your competition.
Suzie Price: [00:22:51]
That's a really good point.
Huff Logue: [00:22:53]
That's a really it's a great it's a great recruiting tool also.
Suzie Price: [00:22:56]
Then to go back to the what the team does after they've gone through the job, you know that very first meeting, the benchmarking brainstorming meeting. Have you found that most people say, well, you know, why are we doing this. Do we really have to kind of convince people to do it? And every single time, once they because they think, you know, I don't have time for this, we got the job description. It's like every time they do it, they say, oh my gosh, that was so helpful. Every time.
Huff Logue: [00:23:20]
Yes. So if you encounter that and kind of some resistance on the front end, because if someone is really a strong delegator as a CEO, they might say, you guys just do that. That's what hire you for. And they'll kind of take that attitude. So my approach is this with them, I will say, listen, who's going to be interviewing this candidate who must interview this candidate for you guys to make a decision? And if the CEO, for example, is and keep in mind for the audience, a lot of my companies are $5 to $50 million software companies. That's kind of my sweet spot of where I play, but I've worked with much larger companies as well. So keep in mind, we have a lot of access to CEOs as part of this interviewing process. And what I'll say is if they're going to be part of the interview process, you have to sit in on the benchmark or we don't do the search. It's our requirement. So in other words, if you don't want to follow this process, that's fine. We're just not a fit. And the reason that's important is because you're qualifying out. Certain people that will give lip service to, oh, culture is important and we want to go through a good process. And then I had a client the other day, we did the job benchmark and said, here's the information. Let's go over and review it, make sure it sounds like what your job is and all that. Didn't get a call back for two and a half weeks. And then I said, so did you want to discuss it? And they're like, oh, we talked about it internally a little bit. That's not really commitment to the process.
Suzie Price: [00:24:37]
Yeah. And what it sounds like to me commitment to the process is the difference maker.
Huff Logue: [00:24:43]
Yeah. So those companies that and what I like is and if you're fit for this culture and fit is extremely important to you. And it's not just lip service, it's not a mission statement on the lobby wall when you walk in.
Suzie Price: [00:24:58]
Yeah, it's more fun to work with folks who feel that way, too, because you're in it to help them create that.
Huff Logue: [00:25:04]
They'll get the biggest value out of it. And of course, we know that some people put too much value on it, use it as the gospel when it's really, you know, it's a tool, but it's a good balance.
Suzie Price: [00:25:13]
We always say less than 30% of the decision. So they got to be looking at everything else too right. You know, to help people. So that's awesome. Awesome. Anything else you want to say about TriMetrix and using it with clients and hiring, and we're going to go into some a couple of interview basic type things. But before we do that, anything else?
Huff Logue: [00:25:33]
Yeah, there's something that I want to say that. It's really not part of some of the basics on the front end is I believe in our world today, and Covid has accelerated a lot of trends that were in place. It just fast forwarded everything we have. And remember, in Q1 of 22, the most difficult time in the 34 years I've been recruiting, the most difficult time to get response out of candidates, to get candidates to engage in the process, to stay engaged in the process is not even ghosting. Don't get ghosted much because I'm pretty accurate, but I've been ghosted by people, and so that was the most difficult time. So what we have going on in our world right now is we have to look at the job descriptions and organizations, and we have this issue with people that got to go home during Covid. They loved it and they don't want to come back to work. They've had a taste of freedom. The cat's out of the bag, and now companies are trying to figure out how do we get people to come back into the office and how do we get them to stay engaged? Well, the world has changed, and so the way we go about job descriptions needs to change. And this is where TriMetrix comes into play in a big way, because there are jobs that require a lot of collaboration and you need to be together. There are a lot of jobs that require a lot of independent solo work. And if we look at different DISC profiles, for example, there are certain people in the high I's and D's love to be around.
Huff Logue: [00:26:54]
Other people love to talk, love to interrupt others and mess up their productivity. But they're the cheerleaders and they're the positive people and they, you know, provide a lot of energy and get things done that way. But there's also people out there that want to be left alone, don't want you to stick in your head over the cube and asking them another question. You just want to go to the bathroom and not have a ten minute conversation on the way. And so when you're putting together job descriptions, I think there should also be a couple of considerations. One is how much of the of these things that we need done, how much of that is collaborative work, who do they need to collaborate with, and how much of it is solo work? Because there's your answer to hybrid work right there. Yeah. The people to come into the office. Yes. Asking people to come in the office that are doing mostly solo work. And I'm a believer in face to face. I think that there's a lot of power there and just there's no substitute for face to face. But the question is, how much do you need of that? And you have to take into consideration the the personality and the style of the individual that you're hiring. And first of all, you got to start with the job description. If a job description is 80% solo work, they only need to come into the office maybe one day a week. And if they do, let them come in at 10:00a and leave at 4:00p.
Suzie Price: [00:28:08]
Yeah, give some flexibility and base it based on what the job needs and who the person is. Right.
Huff Logue: [00:28:15]
So historically, companies were very reluctant to let people even have flex commute times. And they wanted them in the office. Being in a seat was an indicator of performance, which it's not, but at least people are here. And I think that the other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is generations. So we have a Gen Z population that started working in 2019. By 2025, they will be 27% of the workforce. These are numbers, give or take a little bit, but you see different stats. So we have this 65 million number of individuals coming in. They buy differently. They work differently. They value differently than people that are I think the boomers are now only 7% of the workforce. So the other big groups are the Millennials and Gen X. And just as we try to segment our market when we're selling products, we have some of these and these and these, we have to segment our candidate and employee marketplace. The companies that can do that are going to be really connecting with their people. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. So you can have them come in the office. There's new surveys that large firms won't mention. Just come out and here's what's happening and you're just going to happen. Employers are saying, we're going to start forcing people to come back into the office, and we're going to offer incentives for them to do so. Raises, promotions, and well that's going to create some legal issues for people that are home saying, why don't I have the same opportunity? So they're setting themselves up for that.
Suzie Price: [00:29:47]
It's a conundrum conundrum to figure out for corporations. But if they can just go back to what does the job need and who is the person and maybe make decisions based on that, that would be a good starting place.
Huff Logue: [00:30:01]
See I think that's a great opportunity for you. And we know that a lot of companies are not going to do this. But if we can see companies that will do that, they're going to have a bigger impact on their recruiting and their retention and their performance. For people that are happy and engaged.
Suzie Price: [00:30:13]
Yes. And the engagement, to remind everybody, that's a measurement that you can make, but it's the level of involvement and enthusiasm about the work and the workplace and that does impact culture. And when you talking about ghosting and how people are ghosting, you know, you've never been ghosted before. And that's happening now. I mean, some of that has to do with to me, the job descriptions could be better. The job descriptions should be related to the personality style, like in the verbiage of know that would attract someone, the personality style, the Motivators, the things that are measured in TriMetrix, so it's not just talking about years of experience, but what is the personality style that we need, and how is the job going to reward someone in this role. And so that when somebody reads it, they're like, that sounds like me. So there's a joke from a long time ago about there was a roofing company and they never could get a let's see if I can remember it. They never could get a good receptionist. And the receptionist was important because or the office manager because they would direct all the roofing roofer people and new clients, and it was important part of the business.
Suzie Price: [00:31:15]
And so they changed it. And they needed somebody really tough, because some of the contractors that would come in were kind of tough personalities. And so they listed something like totally assertive, doesn't let people get away with things. They did a whole kind of thing. And a guy saw it and he said, hey, that's my wife, you know? And she had a real dominant personality and that's what they needed, you know? And they needed somebody who was a real into rules like that. So the Motivator for that would be Traditional Regulatory. Had a high inner strength, so they weren't easily cowed. So a high sense of self. So they kind of verbalize that in a way that worked in the ad and they of course got somebody and the revolving door stopped because they had a good fit. So that's kind of the bulldog. Think they use it like a bulldog had to be a bulldog or something like that, you know, which describes a certain personality and temperament and that type of thing. So you could get less ghosting if you were more creative in the job descriptions I think.
Huff Logue: [00:32:10]
That's one factor, understanding the generational differences. And even within generations, you can't make stereotype assumptions as a catch all. Even within generations there are old souls that are 21 years old. Okay? And that's again why these assessments are so important, because you can really begin to understand how they think, how they operate, what they're really good at, what their passion about, what actually turns them off. That's what's great about the Motivators is some things can actually turn them off. So I think those are all considerations.
Suzie Price: [00:32:41]
Powerful. Great points. Great points. Wanted to do a couple of tactic conversations for a minute because we have interview mistakes. And then you said that number one is not really talking more than listening. And I see that too. They hear themselves speak. The person says the right thing and then they're off, they're running to sell it on the job. So let's go into a little bit of tactics for a minute. And there's a couple that we list, or there's nine that we list as interview basics. And this is just like for the first interview. And these are just things that and they're pretty straightforward and make sense. But don't think people always follow up. So I'm going to share them. And then I want you to make commentary on them. This is something we share in the our book How to Hire Superior Performers. So number one start and end on time. So that's just showing respect to the to the candidate and prioritizing that on your schedule. Clarify and explain the overall interview process. Don't allow outside interruptions. Again it's it's making interviewing a top priority. And then to your point about the biggest mistake encourage candidate to talk candidate should talk 75 to 80% of the time.
Suzie Price: [00:33:43]
Maintain eye contact so you're connecting with the person. Don't be looking everywhere else or look at your phone. Use the candidate's name so you're connecting with them. Allow silence. A lot of us don't like silence, so allowing them to think and not jumping in with answers for them. And let's see, be pleasant, but response neutral. And that is what we're trying to say there is be warm, but don't cheer them after every answer. And then also don't be real cold and curt because you're trying to scare them, you know? Response neutral is pleasant response face. And then my last thing is back to your point is listen aggressively. And that is to the definition. Our definition of that is to hear with determination and energetic pursuit demonstrating a desire to understand. And so that's really an art that listening aggressively. So what do you like about those? What would you add? What would you change? What are your thoughts? You're truly the expert in this whole process.
Huff Logue: [00:34:37]
Well thank you. I don't really consider myself an expert, but I have been doing it for a while and have seen I've seen a lot. Rather than touching on each one of these, I'm going to come back to about four of them. But generally speaking, I like them. I think they're good. And, you know, my perspective is I'm typically dealing with people that are experienced in the market and they've been on a company or two in their career easily. And so that may not apply to people that don't interview as much or have been with the company for a long time. So I think the the first one to bring up is clarifying, explaining the overall interview process. I think that's really good because candidates are always confused about what the next step is. Right? And companies are not clear about their process. And we talk about that when we're doing the job benchmark who's going to interview. And sometimes we'll say who's going to focus on these questions and who's going to focus on these. You're going to focus on the fit. You're going to focus on the knowledge, skills and experience. And so if they really get their act together and do that, they can be so much more productive and efficient.
Huff Logue: [00:35:33]
Saves them time. Why wouldn't they do that. That's a really good point. I think the other is don't allow outside interruptions. Well, I've got so many stories of candidates that go on interviews and not only were they late, but they're on their phone. I mean, people are glued to this device or something goes off. Think I turned mine off? Let me make sure before I make this profound statement. Yeah, but they're distracted. We're in a very distracted world. Went to meet with this prospective client one time, and she was a regional sales manager for a company, and this was the first time went to meet with her and I'm suited up, had the tie on. I'm looking professional. I'm in front of her and she's got 2 or 3 phones on her desk. She's got her pens in her hands. She's doing and she's just a minute, hang on. And I'm just sitting there patiently. And I looked at her and I said, I can come back if this is not a good time. I just said it just like that and she goes, "You're right. I'm sorry." She put her phones down and we had a great conversation. I had success with her. She actually came to me as a candidate years later.
Suzie Price: [00:36:31]
Oh, how about that? How about that? But you think about that as an interviewer, if you're distracted like that, then you're really not tuning into the person in front of you to make a good decision. And it's so costly. If they make a bad decision, it is expensive in a million different ways. So yeah, I like that you keyed in on that.
Huff Logue: [00:36:51]
The real key underlying tone here is trust and respect. This is both professionally and personally in relationships you have with your spouse or your friends or in your work environment. And what message are you sending? I've got one client that still sends a limousine to the airport to pick up their candidates when they fly in. It's the only one that does it, and that used to be kind of a thing, but they show them the utmost respect. They have an outlined schedule. They follow that schedule. And then one of the executives rides them back in their personal car to the airport.
Suzie Price: [00:37:23]
Wow. That's respect.
Huff Logue: [00:37:25]
I've placed about 25 people with this company. Anyway, the talk thing we've kind of hit, but I want to say something about the talk. And there's really two types of interviews. This is a tip for people out there trying to figure out what's my interview approach or strategy. So you can take the approach to say, I'm clear about what I want. I know how I'm going to measure it, I know what questions I'm going to ask, and I'm going to go through this process and I'm going to take notes and do that. And but what that feels like can feel like is a little bit more like an interrogation, right? And candidates are not they think they're supposed to tell to sell about themselves. So they're ready to sit there with their hands in their lap like a good boy or girl and say, yes, no. And then that's the interview. It's not really very engaging, but the client can do that. So there's really more. I didn't use 75, I use 60 over 40, maybe 30/70.
Suzie Price: [00:38:12]
Okay, I like it.
Huff Logue: [00:38:12]
In terms of the ratio, again, we have a lot of clients that talk about the company and all this other stuff, like who cares. We find if the roles fit and if it's fit for me, then yeah, I'll want to know about the company and think the other approach. And here's the tip. And I've done this many times, and it can be a good approach for certain interview situations. And that is, let's say I'm interviewing you, Suzie, for a job with me and would say, Suzie, let's do this. What I'd like to do is rather than ask you a bunch of questions, starting off is I'm going to assume it looks like you're in your background. You have the knowledge, skills, and experience rather than me going and digging to that right now. First, what I want to do is I want to share with you as much as I can about this role and what it really needs to accomplish and who it interacts with and what it's like, and what a week in the life is like. What a day in the life is like. I want to try to paint a picture for you because you look like an intelligent person who's successful. So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and let you self qualify yourself for this position. I want you to tell me after I explain it to you, I'd like for you to share with me how you think you fit that role and why that is something of interest to you or not. And so here's what happens. First of all, I've done the talking, I'm the hiring manager. I get to do that as long as I articulate the things correctly. But secondly, I want to see how that person remembers and applies what they've done to my job. Because if I hire them, that's what they've got to do.
Suzie Price: [00:39:36]
Yeah, right. They do need to hear what the story is. Yeah. So where in there would you have maybe if you had an interview team, maybe that's one person doing that approach and the others digging in on the interpersonal skills or the intangibles, or would that be the first interview and then the second interview. You dig in on the intangibles?
Huff Logue: [00:39:55]
Let your high eyes explain the position. Let your high seas do the interrogation. But you know what I mean.
Suzie Price: [00:40:02]
I love that approach in regard to because that is how they're going to have to work. They're going to have to hear what's going on and then come back to it and say, what about this? What about that? I'm thinking this, you know, come up with their plan. But I also think the asking the questions and listening is so important too. So that's just interesting.
Huff Logue: [00:40:22]
So to move on to the next point, allowing silence. We all struggle with this because we're always trying to fill the space. There is a great selling methodology years ago called Strategic Selling. It's been around for a while. But most people don't know their second book. It's called Conceptual Selling. And Conceptual Selling has a concept in there called Golden Silence. And Golden Silence is that time after you make a statement that you just find the period, shut up and see what response you get. Or when someone asks you a question. Let's say, candidate asks you a question about something and you just take a moment versus giving, oh, well, we do this and this and you, you take a moment. You know, that's a really good question. I think the best answer I could give you would be this, this and this. And that's typically how we handle that. And what it does is it sends a message that I'm really listening to you, which ties in with your last point, listening aggressively. I'm listening. I'm paying attention. I'm not just giving you a quick answer. Yeah.
Suzie Price: [00:41:20]
People usually, if you ever mention listening aggressively in a group of leaders in a room, they're all nodding their head like, oh yeah, that's a really good leadership skill because, okay, I need to tune in. I need to not just wait for you to finish talking and then speaking. And everybody thinks they're a good listener. But boy, we all, no matter how hard we work on it, can continually work on it.
Suzie Price: [00:41:41]
Alright this is the end of Part 1 Hiring Manager Mistakes and Best Practices with Huff Logue. You don't want to miss Part 2 and you can find the show notes and the link to Part 2 of this episode by going to pricelessprofessional.com/hiringmanagermistakes and in Part 2 you're not only going to hear more about hiring manager mistakes and best practices, but we get into more personal insights that I believe you'll find very valuable. It's examples from his life and things he's learned and he applies it to some of the tools that we talk about. You also don't want to miss in Part 2 at the end where I share some of my takeaways from the conversation. I've had people say that they enjoy reading that part as a good summary, so you don't want to miss that. Go to pricelessprofessional.com/hiringmanagermistakes to find this episode and to find the next episode. You can also subscribe to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast wherever you get your podcasts, so type in Wake Up Eager Workforce, search for us, and you'll find us. And just a reminder, we talked about this in our last episode, we are giving away a Workplace Motivators Assessment, it's about a 24-page report and making available over 100 Development Resources, if you leave a review and let us know that you've done that. If you could leave us a review, we would greatly appreciate it. We'd love for others to be able to find us. If you're not sure how to leave a review, go to pricelessprofessional.com/review and we show you how to do that and what the steps are. So reach out to me once you do that and we will send you a link. To find all of our episodes, go to wakeupeagerworkforce.com and you'll see our directory and if you have any questions, reach out to me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
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