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Episode 115 Transcript

Suzie Price: Today is a special episode. It is recording from the 2023 Robert S Hartman Institute conference was held in Atlanta, and it is a panel discussion with three legends. They are Hartman legends, they are Professor Legends. They are author legends, they are financial asset manager legends that all have the same thing in common is that we're students or colleagues with Robert S Hartman, who is the founder of one of the sciences in the assessment tools that we use. And it's a great discussion. You're going to learn a lot more about how to make better decisions. You're going to learn more about measuring your progress and being who you can be, how you use assessments, how you help other people make better decisions. You're going to learn from other consultants. Because I have short interviews with ten different conference attendees finding out more about them, how they use these tools in their work, why they use these tools. So if you are interested in any of that, you're going to enjoy this conversation. It's a very rich conversation. It's a very meaningful conversation. It's going to help you understand axiology and TriMetrix better. It will help you understand yourself better. Just lots of great insight here and I'm very excited to share it with you. Michael. Hit it.

Intro/Outro: Welcome to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, a show designed for leaders, trainers and consultants who are responsible for employee selection and professional development. Each episode is packed full with insider tips, best practices, expert interviews and inspiration. Please welcome the host to his helping leaders, trainers and consultants everywhere Suzie Price.

Suzie Price: Hi there. My name is Suzie Price and you're listening to the Wake Up Eager Workforce podcast, where we cover everything related to helping you and the employees in your organizations. Build a high commitment, low drama, wake up eager workforce. We're all about waking up eager here. We want to help leaders make good decisions about their people and make good decisions in their lives. We want to help people be all that they can be, and we use the science that we're talking about today with these legends and with these consultants in all of our work, and we train a lot of our folks on how to use it and how to understand it and how to apply it. This is episode number 115, and the title for today's episode is why we do this work and why we do this work, and Robert S Hartman, past, present and future to find the show notes. So you're going to want to probably know the show notes today. We always have very detailed, time stamped show notes. We have a transcript. This is a longer episode, so you might want to move around within the episode or look at the transcript and skim that and get the pieces that you're interested in. But go to priceless priceless's where everything is. Here's what I think you're going to get from today. You're going to discover the magic of Robert S Hartman.

Suzie Price: And so you're really going to feel and understand the history of where this comes from. And you're going to learn why consultants use Hartman's assessment, why some of us call ourselves heart maniacs. What the heck is that? That'll come up in our discussion. It's going to help you grow your appreciation for the depth and meaning of this work, and it's going to deepen your understanding of the value of this methodology. So a lot of, like I said, a lot of meaningful content and conversation here. Now, this was recorded on my portable recorder at the 47th Annual conference. And again, I mentioned it at the opening. It was in Atlanta and the theme was Freedom to Live. It was a last minute idea for me to bring my portable, and so we cleaned up the audio the best we could in the future. I probably could do it a little bit better, but you should be able to hear everything pretty well. So we were able to clean up most of it. That was the 47th annual conference, so that's hard to believe, right? 47th annual. Art Ellis, one of our panelists, has been to all conferences except one. And his wife, Charlotte always comes. They live in on a mountain over in Tennessee. They're wonderful people. And she always brings her casserole to all the conferences. So everybody had to have Charlotte's casserole used to be a small group of people that started this conference, and we had 50 to 75 people at the actual conference.

Suzie Price: We had people from around the world and all over the United States. You know, it's not always easy for everyone to participate because of the travel. We've had virtual conferences where we've had much more than that at the conference, but it was great to have 50 or so people there, all of us calling ourselves heart maniacs. And basically what that is, is people who value and appreciate the work of Robert Hartman. And many of those people are consultants who use the tools like TriMetrix that we use, or they go by other names. There's other tools that use the same science. And this tool is the under the hood horsepower tool that we use in TriMetrix called acumen. The panelists are three of Hartman's colleagues and students, and I'm the moderator. The three voices that you'll hear. One is Art Ellis, Steve Byrum, and Mark Moore. They're all PhDs, and I'm going to share their complete bios with you. And when you hear them, you're going to say, wow, they really are legends. She was not overstating that. And then as I mentioned, we have these impromptu interviews with ten attendees, and they're talking about why they came to the conference, how they use Hartman's work, how that work has helped them personally and professionally. And what we did is we're inserting the clips of those conversations throughout the panel discussion.

Suzie Price: So you'll you'll see a segue, they'll probably be a little bit of music and then, uh, some consultant and you'll hear us talking. I'm asking them these questions. So if you're unfamiliar with Robert Hartman and Axiology, if you are interested, skip to the end of this episode, and I'm going to give you a just a high level, a little bit of depth on it, but mostly high level overview about who was Hartman, where did he come from? Why do these people Revere him so much? How did he become such a wonderful human? Which is what you're going to hear in this, uh, you know, that's the legend he left, you know? And then what is axiology? How do we explain it? So that'll be in the final part of this. At the end, I want to give you a few notes about the the conversation that everyone will refer to the Hvp. A lot of people will say that or they'll say Hartman value profile. And that is what our tool is based on. It's Hartman's work. Axiology Hartman's work is used in so many places around the world. He's not always acknowledged or people don't put it all together, but you'll see evidence of that in the conversations that we have. But one of them is the Hartman value profile. So there are other tools. So I had somebody recently say, hey, I looked up.

Suzie Price: Metrics and they're not, you know, like you're there and there's some people that are international that are there. But how prevalent is this? Well, the work is very prevalent because there are a lot of other tools that use the same science. We all do it differently, and hopefully I'm able to differentiate and add enough value, you know, to make sure that my TriMetrix people want to stay with TriMetrix. But there are other tools and you'll hear it. Steve Byrum, one of the panelists. His company has built the judgment Index. Axial eugenics is mentioned from several of our participants and the consultants that we interview. Habit finder is mentioned, and that's just a few. So there's a lot of tools out there with different names that have Hartman's work on it. So that's why I said you'll you'll get appreciation for the depth and meaning of this work. This is going to be a long episode, so check out the timestamps and the transcript. Priceless  And so make sure you check that out. Another few other notes about, you know, people will refer to the Hartman value profile that also refer to Robert as Bob. Mark Moore does that a good bit. Bob this, Bob that. So that's who that is. Read a Hartman is his wife, and she was an integral part of the business and of the life of Robert Hartman. And there's a lot of great stories that I've heard about her and pictures I've seen of her.

Suzie Price: So I feel like I know her. So you'll hear the mention of that. And last but not least, at the end of the episode, you're going to hear the end of the sharing. You're going to hear a yodeler. And that was one of our entertainment. It was it's a guy who is very talented. He he's a retired professor and he's now a professional yodeler. And so while we were having happy Hour, he started yodeling. And, uh, it was pretty kind of odd, but super cool in the same moment. Interesting and very entertaining. And who knew that you could be a professional yodeler? And so at the last minute, I grabbed my recorder and I caught a minute or two of that. So if you're wondering what the yodeler is and I record on there his name and information. So that was interesting. So let me just tell you a little bit about these legends that we're going to be learning from. And that is all three worked with Hartman. There are a mix of colleague, friend or student, and they are part of the original group that came to the first Hartman Institute meetings. They used Hartman's work throughout their life and they furthered it. They're all living differently. One person Art is a license or was he's retired licensed professional counselor. Uh, Steve Byrum is a professor, as he mentions for 25 years and a and a counselor, but also a business owner.

Suzie Price: And then Mark Moore is a financial and technology wizard in asset management. And, you know, has done some very interesting work there. And Hartman's work has influenced them. Hartman's life has influenced them. So let me tell you a little bit about each Art Ellis has been on a couple of our episodes, so I'll put show notes to all of the Axiology influencers that I've interviewed in the show notes. But a little bit about Art is he's a licensed professional counselor, and he has been since 1971. He's got degrees in psychology and rehabilitation counseling from the University of Tennessee and a doctorate from La Salle University. He's also a certified master addictions therapist and a diplomat of the American Psychotherapy Association. He worked with the Veterans Administration, and he has helped co-author and edit a lot of Hartman's books, the very technical manual. So he's very much a formal axiology artist, but he is also just somebody who knows how to apply it and speak about it in general and great terms to help everybody understand it. He's a great supporter of the institute. He and his wife, Charlotte, support the institute. They supported the archives and getting these books published, and he's just been an amazing person and influence in many of our lives. And so he's still, thank goodness, is still very active in the institute.

Suzie Price: So check out the previous episodes that I've done with him. This will be the third time he's been on our podcast, so that's how much I think of him. He's amazing and you'll see it and feel it when you check out his other episodes. The second person we're interviewing is Steve Byrum and he also has a PhD. He is the founding partner and chief content officer of the Judgment Index. So he has an applied axiology use of in regard to the tool that they use. He's the president and CEO of the Byram Consulting Group and founding partner of the Athena Group. So he spends about 60% of his time on the applications of the assessment and like try metrics, theirs is called judgment index. And big part of what they you know, we all have different ways in which we use it and how we've created our tools, but it's some of the work that they do is based on the Hartman value profile. Uh, it looks closely at judgment. Is is their verbiage on it, how we think, feel and make decisions? It's our judgment 40% of the time. He works with leadership development and succession planning. He. Holds degrees from Tennessee Wesleyan College, Southern Seminary, and then an Ma and PhD from the University of Tennessee. He's done post-graduate work at Princeton, Vanderbilt, and a bunch of other colleges and endowments. He was a professor at the university and college level for 25 years, and a counselor for 22.

Suzie Price: He's written more than 40 books and over 150 periodicals. See, I told you these gentlemen were legends, right? Or are legends? Mark Moore, also a PhD, CEO of Atlantic Alpha Strategies, and he is a seasoned asset management professional with substantial financial and nonprofit board experience. He holds a PhD in philosophy with an emphasis on value theory and logic from the University of Tennessee, and he is well known in the investment industry for co-founding a commodity trading advisor, and he served on numerous boards, helping them manage their millions and millions of dollars of in different hospitals and different boards of all kinds of places. So very a wise man and really a big thinker and really understands machine learning and talked about things at the conference that I could only take notes on and tried to really understand. But just a great, great person. His most current board is the Fintech advisory board for cryptocurrency hedge fund Ark 36. So all the you financial people will know what that is. So all three of these legends are still involved in the Hartman Institute came to the conference. It's an honor to meet them. It's going to be an honor for you to hear from them. And let's go to the episode now. So future is going to take 15 more years. What do you want to happen? What do you wish to happen? What do you think will happen

[00:13:28] Art Ellis: I'm not very good at predicting things that are going to happen, because sometimes in our world, things seem to happen much more quickly than I expect them to, and other things just drag on and don't seem to ever happen. So we have actually managed, I think, to endure for 50 years, 47 years as, as the Institute. And we have struggled through many things. And what I would really like to see happen is more of a focus on whatever it is that is determined by this group, by the board, that we ought to be getting into action doing. In regard to the issue about peace and the science of peace. You know, I don't think we've ever actually had peace in our world. We've had periods of time where parts of our world were not having war. And we had, you know, in this country we've had, you know, prosperity and we've had, you know, situations where people seem to be safe and not threatened. But worldwide, there was somebody who came out with a publication several years ago, a study that said, you know, we see a lot of upheaval in our world. But if you look at it historically, actually, there's less damage going on in the world at this point in history than there ever has been given the number of people. There was a lot of dispute about that topic, but you can certainly look at it that way. And I go back, I was talking to Cliff this morning, I think about Hans Rosling, who, uh, and one of the things that I grabbed out of that book was all progress forward is progress forward, even if it's a little bit, don't discount it. You are still moving forward. So over the past 50 years, we have moved forward. We have this wonderful group of people gathered here today and I said yesterday and I'll say it again, thank whoever it is that got you involved and got you here and bring other people with you. And I don't know what else it is I'm supposed to address, but I'm going to pass it on. Yeah, we have a lot, lot more.

[00:15:49] Suzie Price: Many more questions too. That's beautiful.

[00:15:53] Mark Moore: Well, I'm like everyone else.I'm no good at predicting the future, and I wouldn't pretend to do so. And and as you know, I don't think the future can be predicted anyway. However, however, we can prepare for a better future, and the way we do that is through, I think, understanding people like Robert Hartman. I go back to this as I think about the world, something I'll go back to time and time again. And I've even coined a little expression for it, uh, distributive justice, which is something axiology is wonderfully adept at talking about distributive justice, which means bringing the best justice you can for all peoples is not a zero sum game. In other words, you don't get distributive justice by taking from one group to give to another. That's what courts do in lawsuits. You know, if you sue for damages, then you lose something for them to gain something that's not that's not a that's a zero sum game, okay? Distributive justice is really Martin Luther King's ideal of how race relations should work. Uh, it's not reparations. And I'm not picking on people who believe in reparations. Reparations is a zero sum game. You've got money. I want your money. Okay? That's not justice. That's a finding a penalty on someone. But justice is giving everyone equal access, everyone equal rights. That's what justice. And my favorite examples of this. At the end of World War one, there was the the Treaty of Versailles. The Treaty of Versailles, when it was signed, was the beginning of World War two. Yeah. Why? Because the German people, most of which had nothing to do with starting that bloody World War one, were paying a price that caused them to live in such abject poverty that it was absolutely impossible for them to make do.

[00:17:45] Mark Moore: So what did they do? They elected a visionary like Hitler, and he was a visionary, terrible vision. But it was still a visionary, and he was able to convince them that the Jews were at fault and blah, blah, blah and all that. Uh, what what horrible things in contrast to that was the Marshall Plan, which ended World War two, which was the reconstruction of Europe. Now, we've had peace in Europe since the end of World War two. We didn't have peace at all with the Treaty of Versailles. So I think there are things that are absolutely theologically sound. That can be done, that can be conceived. So I agree with you completely that peace is not the absence of war. Peace is the mindset. And Bob was completely right. And by the way, Bob and I talk about this. The Marshall Plan versus the Treaty of Versailles and how you can go about it. Right now, we're having war in the Ukraine, and we're having war in Israel again. And in Israel we have people who believe in a zero sum game. There will be no peace in Palestine until all the Jews are pushed into the sea. And here again, I'm not trying to say Palestinians don't have a point. Of course they do. Of course they do. And their rights need to be absolutely preserved and appreciated. But but you see, as long as there are people who believe that I can't have peace until you're dead or until I take what you have your land, your property, whatever, that's not distributive justice. It is not a road to peace. So, uh, I think we have a role to play there. I do.

[00:19:20] Suzie Price: Awesome. Thank You.

[00:19:22] Steve Byrum: I think it's very interesting that we can't predict the future, but I would claim that Hartman was pretty prophetic about some of these things we're talking about right now, the title of this small book that we should be so proud to have in our possession, and we should make sure it gets in the hands of as many people as we can. The Revolution Against War is a kind of an ironic title in a way, because most of the writing that was done in that book was done after World War Two. When we felt like that, we had finally learned the lesson of where wars could take us. And for Hartman then to write a revolution against war in the aftermath of of all the enthusiasm of this war coming to an end again may seem a little bit ironic, but I believe what Hartman understood was that the conditions that have maybe always led to war, but certainly had led to the Second World War were still there, and that the conditions may, in fact, have been there in the late 40s and early 50s in ways that were maybe more abundant than even in the times that Mark's talking about. And obviously what Hartman was talking about and what scared him passionately was the way that technology had exploded in scientific culture and given us a nuclear, given us a nuclear capacity, which of course has grown and grown.

[00:20:46] Steve Byrum: And so I think that I think that Hartman understood that the scientific world that that was bursting at the seams in the 1950s and then into the 60s, that got us to the moon and all of that sort of thing, that it was more about the systemic, it was more about conceptual theory, idea, etc., and it was more about the extrinsic outward manifestations of what these ideas and concepts were providing us in real life situations, but that maybe what was happening in this scientific world that we were pushing the edges of was that the intrinsic, the human element, was being pushed more and more and more to the edge, which became the huge threat, because you didn't have an intrinsic guardrail that would kind of maybe keep all the extrinsic things that we were creating and all the systemic ideas that we were having in some kind of alignment, or again, in some kind of a of a guardrail. And I and I think that that's where we still are today. So I think that this book to me really is prophetic, because I think that when you open it and read it, that it's almost like you're reading it because it was written on ideas and events that were taking place last week.

[00:22:09] Steve Byrum: And so if you get a scientific advance that can destroy the world, if you get authoritarian individuals like an Adolf Hitler, if you if you get a very tricky propagandistic media, and if you get people who are not real well educated in the intrinsic domain of life that's out there, I think Hartman saw that as a recipe for a potential disaster. And I think when he talked about a science of peace, or I think when he talked about a science of values, that he was trying to use the word science to get people's attention, because that was not a word that was usually used around processes of peace or processes of value. And I think that what he was hoping to do was to raise a whole consideration of values to a level of concern and interest that could at least have some kind of parity with the concern and interest and forward movement that was occurring in the scientific world view and all that was manifested, all that was manifested from that. And so. I think that what he wrote in that little book, I mean, it could be on the newspaper headlines today. That's how current and how far ahead I think he was in his his vision of the world.

[00:23:36] Amy Lemaire: Hi, my name is Amy Lemaire and I am with Aim Training and Consulting. I came to the conference because of 2 or 3 reasons that I'll share. Number one, I was lucky to be selected to speak and I spoke today about From Zero to Sales Hero, the Sales Confidence code. And the second reason I came here is that I believe in the work of Robert Hartman. I also believe in this community and my life and my business is on the foundational principles similar to his of finding the good. And I felt inspired to be with this group to learn, but also really for my own personal self-development. That was another reason I came.

[00:24:17] Suzie Price: So talk a little bit about how you use Axiology in your sales training, a little bit about why you do that?

[00:24:24] Amy Lemaire: Sure. So I use Axiology in my sales training for many reasons, but I think the simplest way to state it is that I spent 20 years in sales. I've been in training sales training for ten years now, and what I found is most traditional sales training programs focus mostly on product knowledge, sales process, handling, negotiations, getting the clothes. But one thing that they miss is developing, as I say, the inner game of selling, and that I think ties right into axiology. So the way I'm using Axiology in my business is that when I work with large teams and sales teams, what we do is we conduct a team DNA where we pull together the assessments, and then we look at the Hartman value profile. We see where the teams areas of strength are and the areas of opportunity, and then we will have a session in which we coach towards that. So the team understands that. I call these the Habits of success. And the other place that I'm using Axiology is I also do personal coaching, and I do a retreat called The Best Version of You Success Habits breakthrough. I do those three times a year, and at that retreat, it's a great place for people to come and take a look at what's working in my life. What areas am I stuck? And we base the entire weekend retreat on the six habits and axiology that we talk about in Habit Finder are.

[00:25:46] Suzie Price: And what makes Axiology different from other tools and why I use it, and why are you focused on it?

[00:25:53] Amy Lemaire: Yes, I have done a lot of assessments, everything from social styles to disc to Myers-Briggs, and what I have found is that the biggest differentiator in this assessment in Axiology, I should say, is that it provides immediate feedback of where we are having success and where we might be stuck with our thought habits. And that information can make immediate. Sometimes changes take time, but it gives immediate information that we can use and apply in our life to make those changes. Some of the other assessments I've worked with in the past are great, wonderful information. But the thing I think is missing is how do I apply this to my life and how do I make the changes I need to make? Whereas with Axiology, I feel like with that feedback, we're also getting a vision on the next steps. We need to also take to make the changes.

[00:26:43] Suzie Price: How has knowing Axiology you know the teacher always gets to learn, right? So how is Axiology changed for you personally? If it has.

[00:26:52] Amy Lemaire: It has changed me in so many ways. I was first introduced to the Hartman Value Profile back in the beginning of 2018, and in that time in my life I thought things were going well. But then once I took the assessment and had a conversation with a coach, I realized that I was stuck in so many areas my career, my relationship with my husband at the time, just living on the cycle of obligation. It has allowed me to see where I was in a place of being stuck in so many areas. And once I decided to work with a coach who taught me how to get unstuck, I saw the vision and the light that I wanted to learn this science and teach it to other people. And since then, you know, I will just share with you that it allowed me to start my own business. It allowed me to leave a relationship that wasn't working any longer. It also allowed me to move back to my hometown. It also allowed me to to let go of some really destructive habits I had, including some addictions. So it has been an amazing science and I just so excited about the way it's changed my life, but even more so how it changes other people's lives as well that I get to work with.

[00:28:01] Chet Marino: Good morning. I'm Chet Marino with Vera's partners. I raised the effectiveness of leaders to produce better business results. And today I'm down in Atlanta attending the Hartman Institute conference as a way, really, to learn more about the science and also the many uses that people have. So collaboration and learning more about the tool and of course, the great history, just hearing stories of what a wonderful person Robert Hartman was. I use the various versions of the Hartman Value Profile for people when I'm developing them, and also for companies trying to make hiring decisions for senior level executives. It really is a tool to provide insight for the individual and to help the clients make a more informed decision on people that they're hiring. It's often hard to describe what a unique tool it is and what insight it provides for people. But and I'm learning more about that all the time. But, you know, when you're trying to develop people and unlock their potential or you're helping someone that's struggling, if you have a tool available that could guide you along that and produce this kind of results that you probably heard about, it's a wonderful thing to have.

[00:29:19] Suzie Price: So how has it impacted you personally if it has?

[00:29:22] Chet Marino: Well, this whole notion of paying attention on a regular basis to intrinsic, extrinsic and, you know, systemic views of things, you realize that your own biased views affect everything from your decisions that you make unconsciously even, and your relationships with people. And so just the knowledge of that by itself that you can, you know, view people as objects, etc., it's just a good reminder to help you, you know, be open, be curious and present.

[00:29:55] Suzie Price: Would you say that it makes the unconscious conscious?

[00:29:59] Chet Marino: It can. Yeah. There's so many things that drive each of us that we probably don't even. We're not even aware of that. That anything that can help remind us to basically be right side up and treat people with the, you know, dignity and uniqueness that they all have. That's just a wonderful thing to improve yourself as a as a human being.

[00:30:26] Suzie Price: When you first started using Axiology or learned about it, did you have any idea? I mean, you lead a group of of other consultants to have discussions about it. I mean, you've come up to be a bit of a leader in this. Did you ever think that it would take up that much of your interest?

[00:30:42] Chet Marino: Not at all. It was simply this interesting assessment and a tool that almost nobody could explain properly and for me to understand. But the results of it had this uncanny ability to identify things. And so it had this sort of magical element to it, but it was very difficult for me to find people that were familiar with it enough and to explain how it worked and how it's used. So, you know, that's the quest, I think, that has drawn me and many others, you know, to this tool and the and the wonderful thinking that was done from, from Hartman himself. So but no, I had no idea I was I just was intrigued with another assessment tool. And and then I find out that this is like this Magic kingdom.

[00:31:33] Suzie Price: Oh, I love that. I love that Magic Kingdom, especially since Hartman worked at Disney. Yeah. Yes. Yes, he worked at Disney. That. Wonderful. Thank You.

[00:31:42] Chet Marino: Thank you.

[00:31:47] Steve Byrum: I usually come with some kind of inane way of trying to explain how Hartman's hierarchy of value, and I can say systemically, the person I'm married to is a female. I can say extrinsically she's of a certain age and certain height, certain weight, certain hair color, although she can't remember what it originally was. But then I'll say, you know, she's the love of my life. And so suddenly you're able to get people on to understanding a simple way the movement from systemic to extrinsic to intrinsic. And when those words start becoming a part of people's conversation, you know, you've put an anchor down. Yeah. And I try to say to people and this makes a lot of sense today, I'll say, you know, your GPS systems that get you from one place to another are at least based on three satellites. It may be more than that, but at least three triangulate where you are. And I try to tell people, go out into the world and try to understand that you've got a lens or an eye that can look at things systemically. You've got a lens and an eye that can look at things extrinsically. You've got a lens, an eye that can look at things intrinsically. And also, we're on so much virtual stuff nowadays. I'll say to people, I'm sitting here in my study and I'm looking out there to those trees. They're not buildings, they're not airplanes, they're trees. That's pretty systemic. There's an oak tree and there's a pin oak, and there's a tulip poplar. That's pretty extrinsic, but good Lord, the way the sunlight's coming through these trees today is just absolutely beautiful. And I can look at them all day intrinsic. So I think we can make that. I think we can make that concept the core concept. I think we can make it easy to understand. And if we can give people a different way of looking at their world and looking at themselves, think about the implications of that. I don't know what I can add to that, except I want to give you a quote from a book you may be familiar with.

[00:33:53] Suzie Price: Yay!

[00:33:54] Art Ellis: It should be possible for every one of us to use value science in our own lives, without calculus and without complicated formula. We need only learn how to apply the yardstick, he says, of intrinsic value. And then he's talking about the hierarchy of values to life around us and within us, which is exactly what Steve just said. And that's what you may have heard me. If you've been around me any time in the past several years, that's what I rather hear religiously called informal axiology. Not formal, but informal. It's when it is at work in people's lives, and it doesn't really matter whether they know it's axiology or not, if it works. And so, you know, that's really the golden thing. We want that out in our world. At the same time, we want not to forget that we need to also develop. We don't want Hartman to get lost in this. You know, we've got to keep Hartman some vein of what we do and what's carried on into the future has got to still be connected with him. Even though it goes out into the world. There's a lot of things going on in the world. Mark mentioned yesterday that he's just won a lawsuit with Intel, which was using Hartman strategy.

[00:35:27] Art Ellis: And it's not connected with Hartman's name at all. Well, how much is Intel out in the world? It's everywhere. Uh, there's a book or there's some Articles in the journal. And, Cliff, I can't remember the guy's name. Peter. Somebody who did the research. He wrote two Articles in the journals, which are wonderful about Hartman's time at MIT and its lasting influence, and that group of people who were so concerned about what was going to go, what, you know, the nuclear age, as you were talking about, who came together at Maslow's instigation to talk about this and try to get that message out in 1957, New Knowledge and Human Values is the no longer in print book. I think that Maslow put out that had a collection of those, which includes a couple by Hartman. So, you know, that was the kind of thinking that was going on in high minded people at the time to try to put a focus on a critical problem as they saw it in our world and to call attention to it. And it even got headlines in The New York Times. That's the kind of background that we walk in the light of and need to keep the light shining.

[00:36:51] Mark Moore: I want to say something, so I'm going to say it. It's probably the wrong thing to say and probably maybe I'll turn you off to say it, but but but look it I, I spent about 20 years of my life working on Wall Street, running one of the biggest hedge funds, Millennium partners in the world. And, uh, while my love is what I was doing yesterday. And that's what I do, and that's why I work alone now or work with my partner Hong, to do is because I love working alone. I love I love no one telling me what to do, and I love doing what I want to do. And if I want to get up at 2:00 in the morning and work, I do it and I do a lot. But still. I also understand that developing the institute into more of a force, becoming more important to a broader array of lives is not something that you do because you personally care. You've got to develop yourself as a business. And that's what I'm afraid if I say words like that, it's going to turn you off. But does the Institute need to become a business? Yes. And I mentioned the Hoffman Institute because they're a business, but they're also impacting people's lives in a very positive way.

[00:37:59] Mark Moore: And they are I mean, I know it's a celebrity thing now. That's how they make their money. But they also they also are impacting people's lives in a positive way. And if you want to have influence in people's lives, if you want to broaden the influence of Hartman, then in a sense you have to get organized to do that and to be a business that does that. Does that mean you're a think tank? Well, yeah, possibly. And you invite people to come and study there, do summer school. I mean, there's models of how to do that. It takes money though. I mean, you know, you've got you can't do it for free and not everybody's going to do it and work at it like you all do, which is because you do it because you love it, but you all have your own pals to worry about. You're in business, or at least most of you are, and you have to sustain that. So, as I do myself. So, I mean, uh uh, it takes that kind of work to do it. So you have to become a business of some sort. Uh, there are people who can help you with that.

[00:38:56] Mark Moore: I mean, there are consultants who deal with start up companies with people like, you know, an institute like this, a not for profit institute that wants to become more effective. So it's very doable. The people who know how to do it, I don't, and I say that immediately because I don't. But there are people who know how to do those things. And if the board wants to move that direction, I think and that's a decision for the board, then I think marshaling all of you to be sort of at one with a vision to do that would be a significant event in this institute's life. And, um, you know, we all might have to contribute a, you know, a couple of hundred dollars or something in order to pay a consultant to come in and make a plan for us. You need a plan. There's a systemic again. But, you know, without a plan, you don't know what you're doing. And to go forward. It's just a thought. I'm not trying to. I ask you to be something that you're not. And I'm not trying to get people to change from what they are. Maybe what we're doing is just the way to do it. It's not for me to say.

[00:40:02] Edward Korbel: Hi, my name is Edward Korbel. I am currently a Senior Director of Atlanticare Experience based out of new Jersey. I came here to pursue my purpose, and my purpose is helping other people identify and be clear about their own purpose and learning ways to make a difference and connect with others who I believe are pursuing the same thing. And what purpose do you use Axiology in your life and work? It is seamlessly and symbiotically. Integrate it in my personal life as well as my professional life. And again, it goes back to showing up here today in an attempt to help others live a more meaningful and purposeful life. And through that, helping create a fulfilling experience in that process. Axiology helps me do that because it's something that resonates very viscerally with valuing not only myself, but others and being able to make decisions utilizing the hierarchy of value.

[00:41:20] Suzie Price: So your involvement with the Hartman Institute. Tell me a little bit about that.

[00:41:25] Edward Korbel: Yeah. So I began my PhD journey back in 2018 and was introduced to Hartman's work through Zogenix and Peter Demarest and Harvey Schoof, and took the hvp. Something made me say, there's something here. The reason I'm here today and the reason I'm involved in the institute is just a thirst, a curiosity, and exploring how I can flourish and help others flourish as well.

[00:42:00] Suzie Price: What do you think was tweaked? You said there was something there. There was something there. What was it for you personally?

[00:42:07] Edward Korbel: Yeah, I think all my life I've have been asking existential questions and then introduced to the Hvp only validated it. And somewhat continued to confirm that conviction of pursuing existential things. And I'm like, okay, so let's explore this. And the insights from the Hvp came at a time in my life, a few years after being diagnosed with cancer, and I gave myself permission to finally be myself and engage in a community of others that I think are on that same journey. What's next for me is now. So Stephen Sisler just ended our first day here, and many of the things that he shared resonated with me about where I am currently in my life and what is important and what is of value is now. And there's an element of mystery around that. And that's what the future holds. And that's okay.

[00:43:12] Suzie Price: So the mystery is in the future. Yeah. And the choices I'm going to focus on now.

[00:43:17] Edward Korbel: Absolutely.

[00:43:18] Suzie Price: I think your next now is your dissertation.

[00:43:21] Edward Korbel: My next now is is finishing my dissertation. But my the immediate now the immediate now is doing the work.

[00:43:30] Suzie Price: The work. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. All right. Thank you.

[00:43:37] Brett Johnson: My name is Brett Johnson. I am a consultant and coach with the Kennedy Institute, and I am here at my first conference for the Robert S Hartman Institute. So I come from an I o background. I just finished getting my master's in industrial organizational psychology, and now I'm branching out trying to get some experience. I'm doing a little bit of consulting work right now, partially for the Kennedy Institute. And then I have another opportunity where I'm working with Meals on Wheels to do some research for them. So just kind of dipping my toe in and seeing a little bit of everything try and experience it. The primary reason I'm here and I was introduced to Hartman's work is I would like to take the work that Cliff has done, who's a big speaker here, I know and a big member of the community, and I would like to refine the HP, the version of the HP that he uses and specifically the feedback report. I think you know, the task for me, for Ruth Kennedy, is she wants a cleaner report that builds a little bit more narrative for people so they can connect with the words on the page instead of just seeing some numbers. And it can be a little overwhelming and a little bland for some of these. So I think that's I'm kind of seeing what everyone does with it, all these variations of the Hartman value profile, and try to take that in and refine it and hopefully help generate our version of it.

[00:44:58] Suzie Price: So you're creating a very specific to this company's version?

[00:45:02] Brett Johnson: Yeah, it's I mainly am just trying to refine the report itself so that when people see it, they can build a narrative around themselves for that purpose of growth. The Hartman is obviously big on growth, and I think that's what separates it from a lot of tools and just make it more accessible for people, too. So, you know, lots of number lines and graphs and things. And I think some people's eyes start glazing over. So yeah.

[00:45:27] Suzie Price: Yeah. So what do you think about Hartman and Axiology being around a bunch of what we call heart maniacs? What do you think about, you know, what you're learning about Axiology and what's kind of your personal take on it?

[00:45:40] Brett Johnson: Well, I'll tell you what really stuck out to me. When I'm in these more business oriented type spaces, I kind of expect them to be a little bit more drab and straightforward. And the humanistic undercurrent to all of this today has really appealed to me, and I've found it refreshing to see people talking about the issues that I've got into my field for, you know, trying to benefit people's lives, make them happier at work, place them where they need to be. And everyone here is kind of oriented around those ideas. They're very people focused and what they do and that's that's been really nice. I took the mind scan version of it, and I took Cliff's version of it as well, which I think was the one developed by Steve Byron. So I've taken two of them.

[00:46:22] Suzie Price: And what was your take on it when you saw your results and what did you get from it, if anything?

[00:46:27] Brett Johnson: Yeah, I really connected to it right away because I, you know, coming from IO, I've seen my fair share of psychological measures and one, it just separates it out because it, it's built on growth, which is kind of rare. And the other thing I like is it gets away from being static in the way some others are. My main complaints with other psychological measures are they're either not especially useful, something like the Myers-Briggs, where it's just a tool to get people talking about it, or maybe the first time they've tried to do some introspection. So it provides that where people actually get to look inward, but it's giving them accurate information. However, it's also not something like the big five, where it's just descriptive. You can do something with it. It tells you a little about yourself and where you can go from there and what you can do with it. So I really like that. I have had a great time and everyone here has been super nice, despite the fact I'm kind of nervous.

[00:47:21] Suzie Price: Oh, you've been a little nervous walking to a crowd.

[00:47:23] Brett Johnson: Oh yeah. This is my first, like, conference of any kind, so I've been just soaking it all in. Yeah. Oh, yeah. These are definitely my kind of people around here.

[00:47:34] Suzie Price: So you all are precious to us. Do you realize that? And if you're involved in the Institute and if you get involved in the board, I remember my first involvement was concerned that I was going to mess it up somehow. Or like, you are the people we look to to keep us grounded and make sure we don't go off the rails. So I'm turning it now inward to to the Institute and how this continues. And I want to get your advice. We'll start with Mark first. And this way it was. What wisdom and advice would you share with us as a group to keep this institute strong, to help it not go off the guard rails and help it move forward?

[00:48:13] Mark Moore: Well, I'm not sure I'm qualified to even talk about that, but Art and I were talking about this last night. We and I haven't discussed it with Steve, but I think he would agree. We are have been involved with the Institute for, you know, half a hundred years. Yeah.

[00:48:31] Group: We started it. We were old. Exactly. Beautiful. Exactly. You're beautiful. We started when we were very young. Yes.

[00:48:39] Mark Moore: Um, we have saved the institute, go through some very dark times. And by that I mean a lack of participation, people dropping out, people losing interest. And it seemed as though there were very few people knew coming in to pick up the interest. Uh, we were all concerned because like everyone else here, we think that Robert Hartman was magical, magical figure whose memory not only deserves to be revered, but also his presence needs to be perpetuated. Art and I were commenting last night that we've never seen such a stellar group of individuals, uh, come to these meetings. I think you're fantastic. I think you're brilliant, and I and I think you're you're on point. So I'm really optimistic about the future of this institute. Now, I think that having said that, going back to the old systemic organization matters. And I think that how you organize and how you go forward in the future is a plan. And I think that the institute should develop a plan. I don't have a plan for you, but there are some models that I think that I do know about that I think you should look at. I'm not saying adopt, but you should look at and let me give you quickly one. And this is an important one, because I think it's something that this institute could benefit a lot by, by looking at my dear friend Kurt Ryder, who's no longer with us, was once married to Joan Pesenko.

[00:50:03] Mark Moore: Now, I don't know if you know Joan or not, but she's written a ton of books. Yeah, and they may be a little touchy feely, but that's okay. But Joan's a brilliant, brilliant woman. She's a Harvard trained MD, and and she's absolutely brilliant. And she and she just knows a lot about people and about things that work. Joan had the director of a place called the Hoffman Institute in California. Some of you may know of it. Uh, it's really a celebrity place now. At my my daughter called yesterday, she said, do you know every movie star I know of that goes to the Hoffman Institute now? Well, the Hoffman Institute is not a Hartman Institute, but it's similar. It's very, very similar because what they try to do is get you in touch with yourself and to truly evaluate yourself and to take. And if you go there for a meeting, you go for a week and blah, blah, blah, and have a gourmet chef and all that. But putting all that aside, uh, it's yeah, it's yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a real dude ranch in Northern California.

[00:51:02] Mark Moore: But just just to mention the organization, Ross and Grassi called me and introduced himself as the director and said, you know, we're very interested in the Hartman value profile. And what we'd like to know is, does our institute have lasting value to people? So we sort of know what they are and what they come in and we know what they are. A week later when they leave, we'd like to know what they're like in a year from now. And I said, well, I think the and he knew about the, the profile. I said, well, I think we could give him the profile and do an analysis and see if some of these changes were lasting or not. And this is I think what important could be important to us is to be able to measure and have the facility to impact people's lives that way. So I did a study and I tried to get Leon Pomeroy to do it with me, and he refused because he said it was his data and nobody could see his data. Okay. Goodbye, Leon. Um, so, uh, Bob Smith does good work. So. And Bob Smith's sister, uh, teaches statistics at Boston University. So I said, Bob, can we get your sister involved with this study and do this? So we did.

[00:52:13] Mark Moore: So we gave uh, we gave people the profile going in and, uh, coming out. And then a year later as follow up and what we found and this statistically valid that the the impact of the Hoffman Institute on people's lives was truly meaningful and lasting. Now I it sounds like I'm doing a commercial for Hoffman, but. I think that that's something we don't do at all. And, uh, and it's something we may want to consider. And so when you talk about having a, you know, a street corner, Hartman, you need to do things like that. You need to impact people like that and be able to keep communicating with them about who they are and what they're doing. So I'm probably taking much too long to do that. But but I really like the Hoffman Institute and what they're doing, and the impact is real. And I think that some planning from our board, uh, along lines like that. And if you ask, well, how do you get that started? I don't have any idea. But that's not what I do. But but it's just a thought to pass along. I think we could be more impactful in that way.

[00:53:15] Suzie Price: Awesome, awesome. So what advice would you give us to make sure we don't go off the rails?

[00:53:20] Steve Byrum: I cannot have been thinking the last several days, especially thinking about coming down here. We all knew Hartman and rather intimately, frankly, and maybe a couple of other people did in the room, I'm not sure. But it was like, what could you know, be said about him that just kind of crystallized Robert Hartman and I and I think that Mark and Art would agree. Robert Hartman was one of the kindest people that I have ever known in my life. I spent 25 years in higher education. So the stereotype of a pompous academic is I didn't come out of the clear blue sky, and Robert Hartman was the most opposite of that as a human being could possibly be. I found it very, very difficult to have conversations with him in this respect. I would go out trying to find out more about Hartman. I loved his Hitler stories and I just wanted to pick his brain endlessly. And he was always willing to find out about you. You may have been a lowly graduate student, and you're stock in the scheme of life may not have been very high, but he was wanting to know about where you had come from and what you had done and what had shaped your life and what ambitions you had, and to have someone like him be that kind and to want to know and want to listen. I've never forgotten that as long as I've lived. There have been times in the history of this institute where I'm not sure kindness has been the first word that would have come to mind.

[00:54:58] Steve Byrum: However, I think that now it probably is, and I think that people in this crazy world we live in today may be looking for environments of kindness and listening that they can relate to with other people, and that that can be a pleasant undertaking for them that life doesn't always afford you. And I think that what's happened in the Institute in the last few years has made it more and more of that kind of a spirit to me. And so I think that is accomplishing a great deal. I think that if this institute maintains the spirit of the kind of person that Robert and Rita Hartman were, then, I think that it becomes a place that becomes almost magnetic. Hartman believed, because of things that we talked about and things I'd done, that I could apply a lot of what he did to the arena of theology and religion. And so I'm going to throw out a little bit of that. To answer your question, uh, in the first part of the Gospel of Matthew, there's something called the parable of the sower. And a lot of biblical scholars believe that that parable of the sower, uh, captures the intent of what this character Jesus was about. And I imagine you went to Sunday school at some point, or church school or something like it. But in the parable of the sower, Jesus says that people have the responsibility of scattering seeds.

[00:56:28] Steve Byrum: And he explains, obviously, that sometimes that seed is going to fall on non fallow ground, uh, or it'll grow up a little bit and get choked out, but occasionally it'll fall on fertile ground and grow up into something that can be remarkably substantial. I feel like that our responsibility as an institute is first and foremost to scatter these Hartman seeds, and to never think that that is an insignificant activity, and to maybe hope and believe that they're going to be times in which that seed falls in the right place and sprouts off into something that can really do an awfully lot of good. We can do that. We can be a place of that magnifies his spirit, and we can be a place that is dead set on every opportunity that we've got to scatter these Hartman seeds in the various ways that we have the ability to do that. I really appreciate what Steve just said about the tenor of what this organization has become over the past few years, and I think that staying on the rails, one of the things that that means is this atmosphere of cooperation with each other rather than competition, being willing to work together and share. Okay. Keeping that attitude cultivated in this organization with you wonderful people and you bringing in more of your wonderful people you know, is going to help help the organization to move forward. Perhaps the board needs to be, you know, get in a mode of being more systemic and, you know, adopt some, uh, some rules or some processes of, uh, thinking about moving forward in specific ways.

[00:58:25] Art Ellis: Right now, I, I can't remember who I've said what to or whether I'm repeating myself right now, but right now, our focus, uh, which we are being very successful at, I believe, is publications and the preservation of the archives. And we absolutely need to do that. But right now, that is, you know, our distribution of the publications is limited. So we need to figure out how to make that broad. And, uh, you know, we need to figure out what other activities that the institute can develop which will spread the word beyond just us. But the other thing that comes to me is that the idea of a values clinic on every corner may not be a building. It may be each of you who are out there seeing people and spreading that word in the, you know, this is the Robert S Hartman Institute of Formal and Applied Axiology did you know that was the name of it on the chArter? And that's purposeful. The formal part is, you know, those of us geeks who are still thinking about the theoretical and that is important, don't ever let that go. That is the foundation. But the applied part is you people out there seeing others and spreading that word to them one by one, organization by organization, getting the word out into the world. So, you know, I don't have any specifics, but those are generalities.

[01:00:06] Steve Byrum: Awesome. Let me add that. Uh, let me let me say just as quickly, uh, I used to laugh at Doctor Hartman, and Doctor Hartman would just smile at me. Uh, at that time, I was very fluent in German. Although Doctor Hartman thought that my German always sounded East Tennessee. But. But at any rate, what he. Honestly, most of you aren't old enough. But some of you can remember Kodak, the camera and film company, used to have these little kiosk type booths that you could drive through and drop your film off, and they'd develop your film. You go back 3 or 4 days and get it. That was actually what he was talking about. That was his paradigm. He said, we need to have these value kiosks that people can come in and do an assessment and get some kind of reading. So I've always thought that was a very, very interesting paradigm that he had of a Kodak film developing booth, that you could get a Harman video until 1990, in Houston, Texas, where I saw Memorial Hermann Health Care System put a kiosk in each one of their wellness centers, and a person that was coming to that wellness center could go up, take the assessment, the computer would process it, and we'd create a wellness report that a person could walk away with based on a Hartman profile. So I always thought, That's Doctor Hartman's little kiosk. That's the place people can come and get a reading.

[01:01:37] Suzie Price: Hang on to the bike because you're going to kick us off. Okay. That's beautiful.

[01:01:43] Gayle Abbott: I'm Gayle Abbott with Strategic Alignment partners, Inc., and I came to this conference because I am always looking to understand more about Axiology, how different people are using it to share ideas and knowledge and see practical ways to apply it, as well as understanding the research and the theoretical background that make it such a powerful tool. We use it in our business, in leadership development, team development, individual coaching, a lot of executive coaching. And it's really important to us to help people a learn more about themselves, go to new levels of who they are and what they're truly capable of, to see themselves as valuable individuals and then be able to link that to what they are doing and how they do that in contributing their gifts in their workplaces and their roles in life.

[01:02:38] Suzie Price: How is Axiology different than maybe other tools in regard to reaching these objectives?

[01:02:44] Gayle Abbott: So Axiology really goes so much deeper than the other tools. You know, so many people rely on behavioral style. Well, that's a first impression. And what we've learned over the years we've been working with this, which we started with behavioral style in the mid 1990s. And as soon as we had access to Axiology, we added it into our toolkit. So behavioral style is kind of this first impression. And yes, we see it and it has an impact, but it doesn't go deep enough to really understand the differences. And one of the things we share is it's almost like an analogy to a car. You know, if you look at a car, that behavioral style is the color of the car. Is it a red car? Is it a blue car? Is it a black car? But it doesn't tell you anything about the car. It doesn't tell you where the car focuses. It doesn't tell you what the car's purpose is. It doesn't tell you how well the engine will run in the car. And Axiology shows so much deeper. It shows not only who a person is, how they see themselves, how they define themselves, where they may be lost and not have a clear vision, which can go back to a lot of programming that they've experienced in their life, both consciously and a lot unconsciously. But it also shows where they how are they looking at that world outside of themselves? Where do they have clarity? Where do they really see something? Where do they focus? And then how does that focus, whether on themselves or others, impact what they do in their daily lives and what they contribute? Because we all have these gifts, and so many times you're squashed by things outside of ourselves.

[01:04:21] Gayle Abbott: And what we're really trying to do is bring out those gifts so everyone can contribute in the way they're best capable of it, and it is not limited by what they've done or what they've been told or how they've been seen in the past. But it's truly and this is where Axiology adds so much value. It's understanding who they really are. And in some ways, their real purpose, their real value, just by the fact that they're here and they're alive. And sometimes we find sometimes people can't see that, but it's different. People come at it from different perspectives, and there are things they see clearly and there things they don't. You know, some people don't see themselves. Some people don't understand their roles. Is it because they're in the wrong place? Is it because they're doing the wrong thing? What is really going on? And how do we use this as a tool to assess where they are and then help them go to more of fulfilling their true potentiality?

[01:05:23] Paul Brunett: Paul Brunett. I'm an independent coach. I came here to just really network with people. I've always had an interest in ichthyology and I wanted to learn more about it. So I've been involved with the Hartman Value Profile for a couple of years now, and this is my first time to actually meet people that are part of the Robert Hartman Institute. So I'm learning lots here.

[01:05:41] Suzie Price: How did you find out about the harp and value profile?

[01:05:44] Paul Brunett: I attended a conference virtual conference for WebEx, where somebody that was involved in the profile gave a presentation from Zogenix, and it really resonated with me, and I've been involved ever since.

[01:05:57] Suzie Price: What about it resonated with you?

[01:05:59] Paul Brunett: I think the tie in to value, right. Peter Demarest, who gave the presentation on WebEx, talked about the central question. And a central question is what can you do or what choice can you make? What action can you take in this moment to bring the greatest value for everyone involved? So the idea of value and asking yourself that question daily really resonated.

[01:06:23] Suzie Price: Oh, wow. Okay. So that really spoke to you. For what purpose do you use Axiology in your life and work?

[01:06:28] Paul Brunett: Yeah, I enjoy coaching with Zogenix because I think what all boils down to ultimately is helping people see their own intrinsic value. A lot of people just really undervalue themselves and don't see their own power, their own beauty. So if I can just do that, just even a little bit, I call it a success, success.

[01:06:48] Suzie Price: And talk a little bit about what intrinsic value is so that people who might not know. Axiology. Yeah. How would you describe intrinsic value?

[01:06:56] Paul Brunett: Yeah. Intrinsic value is just we all have value that cannot be measured. It goes on infinitely. And it just the fact of being human, you have value and you have worth and you have. You're here for a reason. You're here for a purpose.

[01:07:13] Suzie Price: And getting people back in touch with that.

[01:07:14] Paul Brunett: Getting people in touch with that. Yeah. Get in touch with your own value. Absolutely.

[01:07:18] Suzie Price: I always think that Hartman's formula of intrinsic is greater than the doing and the processes and the thinking. And so I think that also is a piece.

[01:07:28] Paul Brunett: Absolutely. Yeah. Being is more important than doing. Yeah. And is more important than right or wrong. Right judgment. It's it's yeah. Just the fact of being is is the greatest value.

[01:07:41] Suzie Price: And like actually seeing that formula, it's always imprinted on your brain once you learn it. That might have been what you kind of felt in that first time that you learned about Axiology. Maybe I don't know about the I.

[01:07:51] Paul Brunett: Think so, yeah. I can't really recall now, but yeah, that there was something that attracted me and I think it was the intrinsic piece of it. Right. Just really understanding that that they all matter.

[01:08:00] Suzie Price: We are going to think and we are going to do, but we be first. You be be.

[01:08:04] Paul Brunett: First. Yeah.

[01:08:05] Suzie Price: To prioritize them. Yeah. It is a that's a like a ongoing journey.

[01:08:10] Paul Brunett: Ongoing journey, ongoing challenge.

[01:08:12] Suzie Price: I love that you're doing that to help people see that good in themselves.

[01:08:16] Paul Brunett: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's like I said, I think the greatest value I can provide is helping other people see value in themselves as well.

[01:08:22] Suzie Price: That's beautiful. Beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, so the Art has talked about when he first took the hvp. Can you imagine getting debriefed by Doctor Hartman himself? That's another question. We're cover in a minute. But he said that Axiology became an organizing principle in his life, and one that he didn't even know he was looking for. And so a week, I think most of us in this room would agree and say that we experience the same thing and we all want more people to experience it. And I won't speak for the crowd, but I'll speak for myself. I'm always trying to find new ways to share, easier ways to share what Axiology is, you know, how do you explain it? And so I would like each of you, because if we can explain it or have a light bulb moment, come on, quicker, we'll have more people involved and have this impact. So, you know, how do you share this work? You're seasoned and your experts, so you're going to have an easier way to share it I think, than we will. That captures the interest of people who know nothing about it. You know, what is it you say or do? Or how do you be that makes a light bulb turn on? All right. Thank you. One last question. And then we're going to have a little time for questions. And the good news is is there here the rest of the day. So you'll be able to have one on ones with them. Hopefully they're open to that. But I want you to go back to the day or the time when Robert Hartman gave you the assessment to complete. I want you to put yourself there, and I want you to think about what you were thinking and how you were feeling, and then you were going to sit down with Mr. Hartman, and he debriefed your assessment with you. So share how you felt, what you were thinking. Steve, you can kick us off. We want to hear your experience.

[01:10:12] Steve Byrum: I'm capable of making a total fool out of myself. So I follow Hartman since 1967 and then, having had the opportunity to go to University of Chicago or to Princeton, I chose to come to UT to study at Hartman. My my brother who raised me after my mother died, said, I know you love that football team, but I said, it's not about the football team, it's about Robert Harper. Although I had studied Hartman intimately, everything I could get my hands on since 1967, when I showed up in Knoxville late 69, early 70, I didn't know anything at all about the assessment. I didn't know it existed. I'd been so deeply ingrained into the Axiological philosophy. I'm sitting on the 12th floor of McClelland tower. And a couple of other graduate students. Bonnie Voigtlander was one of them

[01:11:04] Steve Byrum: Were fooling around with something. And so I asked, what are you fooling around with? And they looked at me like I was an idiot, that that was not an uncommon way to be looked at. They had an assessment. So they put it over in front of me. And so help me. I looked at that. I saw Doctor Hartman and Doctor Trego's name at the top of it. They told me a little bit about what it was about, and I pushed it back in a not very kind way across the table. And I said, this stuff's Mickey Mouse. I also had no understanding whatsoever about Hartman's relationship to Mickey Mouse at that time

[01:11:46] Steve Byrum: But I've done my clinical work with a guy named Wayne Oates when I was a seminary, and Wayne Oates was fantastic, but he didn't have he didn't like personality tests. He thought they were shallow. And so I thought that this was kind of like a horoscope in a newspaper. I even went home and told my wife I was afraid I'd made a mistake. She talked me back from that ledge. A couple of days passed, and I hadn't known my box from Doctor Hartman, and I figured he wanted me to teach a class or to go do some paperwork in the library or get him his coffee. I knew how to fix his coffee, and so I went to his office and the door was shut. It was always open, remember? It always open. And so I knocked on the door and he came to the door and he said, Mr. Byram, he had always called me Steve. He said, I'd like for you to know that I always kind of liked Mickey Mouse. I mean, I turned every shade.

[01:12:46] Steve Byrum: I just dug my grave. And then he laughed at me, which he had done before. And so he encouraged me to take the assessment. So what are you going to do? So I took it home over the weekend, and by the middle of the weekend kind of had gotten kind of interested in what he could tell me. And so I had an appointment on the next Thursday afternoon at 3:00 for an hour. And I think I left about 8:00 and it was like time had gone by like that. And I'm a very introverted private person, and the only language I've ever been able to use. About that moment, I felt like somebody had turned a spotlight on my soul. Uh, there were things that Doctor Hartman started talking to me about that only my wife knew about it. And so, you know, that take longer to become a true believer and that kind of epiphany. And so that's how I learned about the Hartman value profile. And I did learn about Mickey Mouse. Well, Charlotte brought me my copy of the Hvp to take since she was taking the class with with Doctor Hartman and thought that I should be involved in in doing that. So I took it, and I think she probably returned it to him. And then an appointment was made, and I think mine was, uh, was in the evening later in the evening, and we spent some hours together.

[01:14:11] Art Ellis: But it was and that was my first meeting of him as well. And I found him to be, you know, warm and receiving. And again, I think that description of what the Hartman value Profile revealed to me is, I can remember Hartman using the term x ray of the soul, that it really, you know, revealed a great deal of the structure of my internal and external life. And I related to all that, you know, it was it was a kind of dialogue between us, you know, which I'm sure that you do with, with people that you work with, where you exchange information and verify with them. You know what the numbers show. I was talking with somebody recently about using the Hvp, and my description of it was that the oral axiology is a systemic part that gives us the structure for the test that generates numbers, which are the extrinsic. And then you look at those numbers and you analyze them. But that picture is not complete until you do the intrinsic part and you transfer to them and with them what the numbers have shown you, and verify and turn that into a real person. And that's what happened with me, you know. And that's where I became a heart maniac on the spot.

[01:15:44] Mark Moore: Well, I first of all, I want to thank Steve for his wonderful story and Art for his wonderful story. I don't have a story like that. I wish I did, but I'm happy I don't. Bob wanted me to take the profile I was happy to do so. I don't care, but what the hell? I'm. I'm really. I'm really interested in this man. I'm interested in his science. But my dream was to become an academician, and I wanted to study. I was a physics major as an undergraduate. I cared about science, but I was not more interested in the philosophy of science than I was actually laboratory work. And so my major professor is my my undergraduate school said, you know, you really should study philosophy of science. I think that'd be great for you. Uh, and you might even be able to get a job teaching it or something. Who knows? So I was doing that, and and I was studying formal logic and some advanced mathematics because, you know, science requires the, the systemic tools in order to do things. And, uh, uh, so I was very interested in, in formal axiology. So Bob gave me the profile. He and he put it aside after going over it and he said, Mark, you can do whatever you want to do. Uh, you know, you've got one of those profiles that you can you can do things. What do you want to do? And I told him what my vision was, and he said, well, why why are you studying here with me? I said, because I think your science is really special and it really can be a science, but it's got some problems.

[01:17:10] Mark Moore: And he said, like what? So I explained to him, I said, well, you know this, uh, Doctor Hartman, your cardinalities as, as a way of distinguishing between the value realms of systemic, extrinsic and intrinsic. Uh, I said, yeah, that works. The problem is, when you try to compute the relationships with the cardinalities, you can only distinguish about 15 of the 18, and the rest of them are all the same value. I said, hello systemically. That's a killer. He said, yeah, I know, I said. I said, well, you know your science. It doesn't work. I mean, in other words, you got to be able to do that for it to work. And and by the way, it's not that it doesn't work for you. And it's not that it doesn't work as a way of understanding the world and thinking about it. It does. It's just the mathematics of it doesn't work. So you got to get rid of the mathematics or change it, he said. He said, so are you interested in fixing that? I said, yeah, I am actually. So I've been working on that ever since.

[01:18:13] Mark Moore: Yeah. And yesterday was the next iteration of it all, uh, using, using uh, uh, computational irreducibility and reducibility and entanglement to identify logically distinct, uh, trends and then to be able to separate them. Uh, previously I published a paper for the journal called The Quantum Wave Model of Value Theory, where I developed a finite way of of distinguishing everything. I think it worked. Uh, I think it worked just fine. But you didn't get the logical differences between the value realms and that, that, that got wiped away. So I'm trying to bring that back. Uh, so I should have done all this in five years. It has taken me 50 years to do it all. And, uh, and, well, that's because I had to make some money, you know, I had to.

[01:18:59] Mark Moore: Other things. Uh, so, so. But but look, I don't have any any great stories. Uh, and I'm envious of Steve and Art that they have such a wonderful anecdotal stories. And by the way, Steve, I was just reflecting. I can just see the way Bob was teasing you when you were, when you knocked on the door.

[01:19:18] Steve Byrum: I was a good target.

[01:19:19] Mark Moore: And and then his laughing Bob Hartman, it wasn't a laugh. I describe it as a cackle. Yeah, it was the best cackle you've ever heard in your life. And it came from down here. You know, it didn't come from his throat. It came from down here in a Zen way, you know? Uh, and so did Rita. But hers was not. Not a cackle. Uh, hers was a beautiful laugh, but both of them had the greatest laughter's. They were so full of life. And they loved life after all they had been through. Uh, and I said to read it once, and it was was with me at the time. I said, how in the hell could you and Bob be so optimistic and so kind after what you had gone through? I don't understand it. You know, I'd be I'd be so pissed off and angry at the world. And she said, oh, Mark, you know, after a while, when you lose everything over and over again and when there's nothing left to live for, you start living for yourself and your love. And Bob and I live for each other. And she said, that's all we needed.

[01:20:18] Nancy Roberts: My name is Nancy Roberts, and I'm known as the Disk Wizard. And the reason I came to the conference is because I use Axiology in my business with my clients for hiring, as well as training and development, and it's the fourth assessment I've added to my toolkit, and it's the one that is the deepest, most difficult to understand. But also the most powerful. So for me to learn it better, understand it more, be able to debrief it better. Well, I'll tell you what I did during Covid, when things kind of came to a screeching halt in the training and development world, I went to Back to Basics and I said, well, if I've got time on my hands, I'm going to learn more about Hvp. And that was what I spent my time doing. So I actually got better at debriefing that tool. And my business in 2020 actually grew instead of going backwards. So the pivot I made was becoming better at my craft, quite frankly. And Hartman was a big part of that. So I'm here at the conference. I just want to learn, like, I just want to learn more that I can apply to my clients, that I can apply to my business. I use the tool in hiring as well. So the more insight I can see when I look at a graph and understand what it could mean about a candidate is incredibly helpful. So just to just to learn and to be able to use what I learn with my clients, that's what I'm here for. So disk and motivators were the two tools I've used since the beginning of my business.

[01:21:55] Nancy Roberts: And then I added competencies, which was great because it's a skill set that complements those two tools. But you could look at those three sciences and you could see a graph that you want to see for a certain role, and you could think the person should be a top performer based on what you see in those sciences. Until I got axiology, I actually didn't know. Like they have the motivators, they have the behaviors. But how are they currently actually evaluating seeing things, the clarity that they have, the biases that they have and how they end up performing in a role that was like the key was hidden in the Hartman profile. And now that I added that piece to the puzzle, it's so funny because my clients say to me, which is why I'm known as the Disk Wizard. It's like you have a crystal ball when you predict how a candidate's going to act on the job within a couple of weeks, they're doing exactly what you said they were going to do, which that's why I got the name The Disk Wizard. But I'm like, the crystal ball is the Hartman. It really is. Yeah, it's underneath the surface. And it's the thing that you cannot readily see in an interview. It's the thing that even if you ask the person about, they can't tell you, right. It's such a it's just a deeper level. It's a deeper look at people. And that was the piece that was missing. And so I really do feel like I have the crystal ball.

[01:23:23] Suzie Price: And how do you explain to people how it does that mean people who don't want to be here and don't want to be certified and don't want to do all of it? Do you have a simple way of explaining? You know. So okay, I got this, I got motivators, I got these competencies. Yeah. How do you explain that?

[01:23:41] Nancy Roberts: So that's a good question because I do keep it pretty general. I don't go into Hartman and his background and the science, because I find that for most people, that's going to be over their head. And when you've got four sciences to get through, it's too much. So I really just I call it acumen and I just explain the worldview. In the South view, this is how you see the world around you in these three particular dimensions, and this is how you see yourself in these three particular dimensions. The amazing thing is, I've debriefed the Hartman with hundreds of people. When I explain what the dimension is measuring, I have never had anyone disagree with their results. I have had people disagree with their disk. I've had people disagree with their motivators. You know what I mean? I have never had someone disagree with their heart, even when they have a low score in a negative bias, because I'll give them options like it could be measuring this. Maybe it's meaning that and everybody always fills in the blanks. Here's what's going on with me. This is the situation. So it's almost like self-validating because they can tell you exactly why they scored the way they scored. So I just keep it pretty general. Yeah. Yes.

[01:24:54] Suzie Price: Because it is truly getting to how we think, feel and make decisions. But we've never had language to say it. So then they see you share the language and they see it and go oh yeah that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:25:06] Nancy Roberts: Exactly. So I love it. And it's I went from being uncomfortable to debriefing it because I felt like I had to tell them what was going on, to just putting some general ideas out there. And then they come back and they tell me exactly what's happening. So what it's done is it's taken my debriefs much deeper, faster. So I had this one gentleman who came in. He was a project manager for a construction company. He had great externals, but his internals were all very low negative biases. So I actually shied away from it. Like I didn't want to talk to him about it because I was like, I didn't want him to disagree or tell me everything's fine, you know? So the sense of self, right. So that's measuring like their self esteem, how they feel about themselves intrinsically, do they value themselves. Role awareness is how clearly do they see the roles in life that they play personal and professional. And then self-direction is how clearly do they see their future and that sort of envisioned version of themselves or the actual future that they want. So he had low in all of those and negative biases in each. I danced around it. I did disk first, I did motivators, I did competencies, and then finally, as I'm going over the worldview, it's like, you know, there's nowhere else to go. And he points at it on the desk and he says, well, that doesn't look good, you know? And I said, well, you know, I was being very politically correct.

[01:26:34] Nancy Roberts: It depends. I said, here's what it could mean. And I didn't even get through the sense of self. And he says, could that be because I have an 18 year old autistic son who functions at a toddler level and. And he's my size. And this gentleman was six seven. And he said, that's what I go home to every day. And I just and of course, he teared up. And then I teared up and I was like, I'm. I said, that's exactly what that is. Reflecting is how challenging it is for you at home. I said, but look at what happens when you come to work, that worldview. I said, you're a rock star. I said, it's like work is where you get to come and be and perform and all that. So I was able to encourage him and just say, some people have this going on in their self view and it impacts their worldview and they can't function. I said, I know from feedback that you're one of the most valued project managers here, so I was able to build him up and let him know that I understood, you know, what he was going through. But the good news is it didn't look like it was impacting him professionally. And so to me, that was just one of those scenarios where I'm like, if I was just going over his desk and motivators, where would that have conversation taken place?

[01:27:44] Suzie Price: And what I think is so amazing about that is when people see their self view and he realizes that that it's where you are, but then it can go up. Yes, that's the hopeful part of it, right? Not like you're not stuck there, right? You know, but now that he sees that and he's he's now seeing, oh, there is huge impact. I've been feeling it.

[01:28:02] Nancy Roberts: Yes. Yeah I agree. And the nice thing was I was also able to reach out to HR and just ask them to give him more support because based on those scores, if I ever see that, I reach out to HR and I'm like, look, I just, you know, I see this in the report. This is just somebody we want to keep our eye on. We want to lend some support to offer them some, you know, EPA services or whatever you can just so that they can get understood and just have just having someone at work to be able to talk to about that, you know, is.

[01:28:38] Suzie Price: So much time at work. And yeah, to know when you see all negative biases on the self view. Yeah, that really tells you something. So the negative bias is how I feel about myself, my work and my future. Yeah. And so that is not like scary or to shy away from. Yeah. But doing exactly what you do and how you did it, it was beautiful.

[01:28:57] Nancy Roberts: And and when you've debriefed a lot of them, what you see is so what I've seen I should say is that there isn't anyone with that type of scoring in their self view that has not revealed to me something really personal that they're struggling with, whether it's addiction or abuse or depression, something is going on. And so, you know, it is predictive in the sense that, you know, something's going on with that person. Obviously, after you check out, were they in a bad mood when they took it? Did they walk away from the assessment? But I walked into a business owner's office one day. He was co-owner, and the one owner who hired me really believed in coaching and leadership development and assessment tools, and the other guy wanted nothing to do with it. So when I got that co-owner's assessment back, and not great worldview either, quite frankly, but really bad self view, I was like, now how am I supposed to go in there and get this guy to believe in my process and believe in this tool when it basically does not tell him any good news, you know? So I sit down with him and he goes, before I said anything, he goes, let's get one thing straight. I hate this place. I hate my job. If somebody brought me a big enough check, I'd be gone tomorrow. And I looked at him and I said, thank you for saying that.

[01:30:16] Nancy Roberts: I said, because I had no idea how I was gonna go through this, because. Your report tells me that. So I went through it, you know, the worldview in the South view with him. And he said, it's spot on. He said, it's spot on. I worked for them for two years, and I coached I actually coached that gentleman because he believed in the assessment, because it basically told him how miserable he was. It was so great. I mean, it wasn't great that he was miserable, but the validity was there. It was the only tool. And I think I was the only coach he's ever worked with. And it was based on me being honest and not trying to blow smoke about the fact that this man had issues for sure, and he was very forthcoming about them too.

[01:30:58] Suzie Price: And he didn't have to blow smoke because you had the report right there.

[01:31:01] Nancy Roberts: Yeah, it wasn't about making him feel great and, you know, like pumping them up. It was acknowledging his challenges, quite frankly. But yeah, the Hartman helped me do that. So.

[01:31:14] Ken Blackwell: My name is Ken Blackwell. My company is InKlaritas, and I'd like to tell people that I rescue accidental leaders and dysfunctional teams.

[01:31:23] Suzie Price: Awesome. So why did you come to this conference? What did you want to get from it, and how has it been.

[01:31:29] Ken Blackwell: Wanted to deepen my understanding of Doctor Hartman's work and wanted to also interface with folks who were doing that work and, you know, build that network of good folks not only here in the US, but internationally. I've been using it for about two years and came across it a couple of times through Peter Demarest. I don't I live in the same area as Peter, and we just kind of intersected several times at association meetings and presentations that he's done. And I finally said, okay, yes, I'm going to dive in and take a class with him. And one thing led to another, and now he's got me certified as one of his coaches.

[01:32:06] Suzie Price: Awesome. What do you like about Axiology? Why did you decide? Because you're a speaker, correct?

[01:32:11] Ken Blackwell: Yeah. Speaker. Trainer. Coach. Yes. Okay.

[01:32:13] Suzie Price: All of that. Okay. So what is it that about the actual science and the information that pulled you in?

[01:32:20] Ken Blackwell: What I, I like is that it is a methodology to help people make decisions to help them through whatever, you know, sort of conundrum, whatever sort of problem that they're facing. So as a coach particularly, I'm working with folks who are stuck. They're not where they want to be, and they're looking to get somewhere else and to help them understand the way they're thinking and how they're approaching the world, because many times they themselves are the reason they are stuck.

[01:32:47] Suzie Price: And how has it helped you personally?

[01:32:49] Ken Blackwell: One of the things that Peter has is the central question, which is what choice can I make? What action can I take in this moment to create the greatest net value? And I have found myself using that with almost every facet of my life. I use it a lot in elder care as I care for my mom. There are a lot of hard choices to make, and so it's easy to get stuck trying to create perfection when really what I need to do is create the greatest net value for her, for me, for the entire situation. In in very confusing, sometimes, sometimes very ambiguous circumstances.

[01:33:28] Suzie Price: It sounds like a light, you know, like a a light in the fog, especially personal situations and elderly parents. That's so challenging. Yes. Sounds like that guidance helps you make the decision or get unstuck.

[01:33:41] Ken Blackwell: Yeah, it's it's a it's a light. And so there's a famous quote that I like to, to share with my clients, which is it's like driving in your car at night and it's kind of foggy outside. You can only see as far as your headlights, but you can make the entire journey that way. So we don't need to know every last step. We don't need to see everything, but we just need to see what's next and to take that next step and the next step and the next step.

[01:34:07] Suzie Price: That you're relatively new to the Hartman world. In regard to Axiology and Robert Hartman. And this is probably, I would guess, your first conference.

[01:34:16] Ken Blackwell: This is my first conference. Yes.

[01:34:17] Suzie Price: Has anything surprised you or been particularly delightful while you've been here that you didn't expect?

[01:34:24] Ken Blackwell: What's interesting is the the split between those who are very focused on the formal axiology world, the more academic world, and then the folks who are more in the application side of axiology and kind of looking at that, how they're very, very different and yet they're all the same. We're all looking at the same body of work and taking it in different places. And so that that lovely diversity has been a wonderful surprise.

[01:34:48] Suzie Price: Yeah. It's interesting because you think, oh, okay, you think everybody's just a practitioner and they're not. There's people who study the science of it and have for their whole life and the philosophy of it.

[01:34:59] Ken Blackwell: Yeah. And indeed. And so, yeah, having all of those different perspectives and I like the international aspects of the Institute. I know a bit of German. And so I've been, you know, talking with some of the folks who've come here from Germany and then connecting and talking about the similar challenges that we have, even though we are coming from two different cultures and two different countries. Yeah.

[01:35:20] Suzie Price: You had said at the start that international was one of your drivers. So that's excellent. Yeah. So you know, Hartman taught in Mexico. So there's a strong Mexican presence. And then there's a lot of leaders in Germany all over the world actually. So that's a wonderful. Anything else that you'd like to add about Axiology or your experience at the conference?

[01:35:41] Ken Blackwell: I guess the you know, that's the okay, now I've got to take all of this stuff that I've filled my head with over the last two days and now go home and make some sense of it and start to prioritize some of what am I going to do next, right. And just take all of this and apply it for myself, for my business and for my clients. Wonderful.

[01:35:59] Suzie Price: It's wonderful having you here. Thank you for coming.

[01:36:01] Ken Blackwell: Thanks, I appreciate it.

[01:36:05] Renee' Wood: I'm Renee' Wood with Gladwood LLC. I use the Hartman Value Profile and helping companies define their culture, grow their culture, and hire for their culture. I came here to meet other people that are archaeologist and believe that we can change the world one person at a time, and it starts within ourselves. And then we can help people measure their growth. And that ripple is going to make an improvement in everyone's lives. I first took the Hartman Value Profile in 2009. I had just been through a very huge life change. I found it very helpful to understand that I needed to incorporate some restoration and refueling. I did that through yoga. I hated every minute of it, but that score was there and it said, you are living in the left side of your brain. You need to encourage growth in your right side. And it was the perfect thing. Three times a week, three hours made all the difference in how I recalibrated and looked at the things moving forward. I help and support especially women CEOs in kind of getting naked. What's really going on? Where do you want to go? What's standing in the way of the stream of the river of life that's flowing through you? That you can take those stones and move them out of the way, that you can recalibrate and you can grow and you'll touch those people around you and the teams that you build and the people that you hire and the culture that you maintain in your companies.

[01:37:59] Suzie Price: When you say help people get naked, say a little bit more about that. You had shared the inspirational piece, but talk a little bit about how Axiology does that.

[01:38:08] Renee' Wood: So I think what axiology the beauty of it is, it creates a transparency of people really being able to understand the metrics of maybe where things are getting bogged down, where people are getting distracted, where the noise is. And I always encourage people take the assessment, choose 1 or 2 indicators that you want to see change in the course of a year. You choose them. You use that awareness and create an intention that is your own for that growth.

[01:38:43] Suzie Price: What about Axiology is different from other assessments? People often ask, oh, is it like Myers-Briggs? Or is it like Hbdi? Or how do you explain that to people? And this whole idea of them being able to choose which rocks to move, I mean, how does axiology.

[01:39:00] Renee' Wood: So what I love about Axiology is it is objective and not subjective. I don't know what people don't know what you want out of it. People are just arranging good to bad. And in that arrangement it tells you 80 things about what a person, the lens in which they look at the world, and the lens in which they navigate inside their own skin and most time inside their own skin, is where the real work. Because the world gives us accolades, money, awards for everything we do on the outside. But we're not taking that time to grow and really develop that inside. And that's where I think the power of the tool really lies.

[01:39:48] Suzie Price: Because it's so interesting, too, that we often forget. I'm just tagging on to what you just said, brought it out in me. Is that our insides, how we see and value ourselves, reflect every day how we show up. And we always want to think that, oh, it's no, it's just how I logically think and you know, and you know, and no, it's how we think about ourself as factored into that whole equation.

[01:40:09] Renee' Wood: Well, and I think especially I encourage so many people, you know, next time you hear Rene, is that the best you can do. Is that it really start to understand where that voice is coming from. Because does that voice have value in your life today as an adult, you're not a five year old anymore. You're not the mistake you made two decades ago. And we let that tape play again and again and again. And once we can name it, we can squelch it, we can shut it down. And that is the power of the tool.

[01:40:45] Suzie Price: Yeah, yeah. Oh, really? Owning who we are and who we can be and not let them pass dictate how we talk to ourselves. Correct.

[01:40:52] Renee' Wood: Yeah. And then I think really I see again and again people really not spending time to refresh and refuel which requires that right side. And people go, what does that mean? I'm like, what do you do? You. Is there anything in your life that you do that you forget time when you're doing it? And sometimes you will say, I don't have time. And I'm like, you can include your children in this. You can include your spouse, you can get out in nature, you can go to an Art museum. I said one time things were stressful. I took a watercolor class. It was so hard to stop ouzels on a paper that I forgot about the PNL. I forgot about the people I was hiring. I forgot about all the change that had happened in my life. I could recalibrate, and then I would go back to my office and I would look at it through a whole new lens. And we need to do that more often than we realize. And I think especially with people working from home, they are not disconnecting work from their home life. And home should be a harbor and a safe place and a place that refuels you and fills you back up. start doing bird watching, whatever it might be. But you know, even taking time in the day to remember to breathe, I'll tell people, go outside in between those two zooms, look around, know that those trees are creating oxygen just for you. Look at the light that's flowing through there, and remember that you need to breathe. You need to take in a bigger breath. You need to live life the way it was meant to be lived. Does that make sense?

[01:42:37] Suzie Price: It does. And would you say that when you you were given the message because you had gone through a big change, rest and restore was necessary for you, and when you see it in others that that's a maybe an element that's missing. It may be in what they tell you, but what do you see in the assessment? It's I know it's on the self view, but what are you seeing.

[01:42:57] Renee' Wood: So on that self regard self-care, I tell people this is not a Manny Petty. This is not that's not that. This is get outside of that left side of the brain, get outside of the world and take up music. You know, find something. I, I was talking with a young man who was a manager of a plant, and he was working really long and hard. And I said, you know, what makes you what do you miss? And he said, I miss fly fishing. And I said, okay, I said, you can take your pole and you can put it in your truck and you can drive. And when you go on your lunch break, because you're going to have a lunch break, go out in the parking lot and practice casting, it doesn't have to have a river there. It's the rhythm. You're practicing for the day that you have a little more time, you're forgetting for a moment all of that's there. You can go to that place and restore and refresh, because even 15 minutes can change how the rest of the day seems. Does that make sense?

[01:43:57] Suzie Price: It does. It does. Fantastic. Anything else?

[01:44:01] Renee' Wood: I think the Hartman value profile, I mean, this is why we celebrate the work. People love the metrics and I love the results. Yes. Yeah. Thank you.

[01:44:15] Sophie Coulthard: Okay. So hi, I'm Sophie Coulthard. I've flown over from London for the conference, and I have a company called AxioGrow. I was really excited to come to the conference because since I've been a member, I've learned so much, so much about Axiology that I didn't know before. I had quite a limited knowledge of Hartman and how to apply Axiology into life and work. I was very much just embedded in the hvp, so learning about these things has really given a richness to my work and my life actually. So it's been really great to come here and just learn more from all the incredible people in the room.

[01:44:56] Suzie Price: Talk a little bit about what you've been creating.

[01:44:59] Sophie Coulthard: So with my own business, I developed a real interest in what's called the part two scores in the Hvp and how they have such an impact on individuals. And certainly whenever I was giving feedback or debriefs to people, the stuff in part one was accepted. But the stuff in part two had the impact. And so I wanted to create a business that had much more of a focus on the part two scores. And what's been great about coming to this conference is that we've had a number of talks that have also really emphasized that part two, and that's been super exciting to listen, to.

[01:45:39] Suzie Price: Explain what part two is and why that is personally meaningful.

[01:45:42] Sophie Coulthard: So I describe the part two of the Hvp as the self view. So it's how somebody reflects and sees themselves. So it incorporates for me a lot of things which are your your well-being, how you see yourself, how you appreciate yourself, your self-esteem, perhaps your self criticism. So all of those things, you know, if we carry them negatively into the workplace, they are going to impact on our work performance and when we can be in a good place with those things, we have a good, solid foundation of self that enables us to get the most out of what we do. So that's that's always been my belief since I've been working with this material. And as I said, there's been some great talks this these last few days, which have covered a lot of that as well.

[01:46:31] Suzie Price: And I find and see if you see it with people is the higher the sense of self goes, the greater their self resiliency is. You know, they can handle stress better, like the practical side of it. Um, you know, talk a bit about that.

[01:46:44] Sophie Coulthard: Yeah, absolutely. I find when people have I describe this as, as a wedding cake. So part one is your top tier of your cake. And part two the self side is your bottom tier of your cake. And if you think about how you want a wedding cake to look, you want that bottom tier to be wide enough to support. It's your foundation that supports everything else that you do your work, your your capacity to look after other people. So when you can have that foundational tier in a good place and have that full and wide and you are fulfilled in yourself and you have healthy self esteem, etc., then you can then support that top tier and get and get the most out of it. And that's that's definitely something that I find people that have that solid foundation of self are just easier to be around. They can get more out of the people that they work with. They are more, you know, empathetic leaders. And so this is this is something that I think the world appreciates. We need development in at the moment. We have tons of tools that measure performance, but we don't have tons of tools that measure that foundation. But the Hvp is one of them, and it can have an incredible impact on people.

[01:48:07] Suzie Price: And people can grow that and it goes up and down. Yes. Based on life.

[01:48:13] Sophie Coulthard: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, life happens and people can sometimes be in a place and time where that foundation is, is crumbling. And so how can then they, they then look at interventions or coaching tools or whatever that might be to, to support them, to build that foundation back up again. And I think that it having a bit of a metaphor. That's why I love the my wedding cake description so much, is that it gives something that somebody can think about and go, right, I have lost control of that bottom tier. How do I go back to that? How do I what do I need to put in the ingredients right now to build that tier up and and develop it so that I can sustain myself and be resilient? Resilient, that is the magic of the Hvp is that you can take it on an annual basis and you can get that reset, reflect where am I now? Where do where does my attention need to go? And yeah, it's been great to see some of the ideas and models that have been shared at this conference that have. Definitely. Given me things to take back to my business descriptions, the way people describe certain things in the hvp. I can't wait to go back and use some of that in my business. Well, it's hard, isn't it? Because I think anybody that does a job that that is around, whether it's around nutrition or mindfulness or wellbeing, is is always a good teacher, but they're not often the best teacher of themselves. It can be very difficult to sometimes put the things into practice that you are talking to other people about, but there's also a great opportunity every day when I'm talking to somebody to reflect and go, what do I need to do for myself? Actually, what do I need to go? And, you know, use and put in place to recharge my own batteries or build my own resilience. So it's always, always worth reflecting.

[01:50:08] Suzie Price: We are at the end of our time. Uh, your story there just reminded me of something. I think Wayne Carpenter might have told me this. That after Hartman died. So this is since this is the 50th anniversary of his death, after he died. And Wayne Carpenter was another student of Hartman's. And he's the one who talks to birds. If you don't know him, it's amazing. Amazing, man.

[01:50:31] Mark Moore: He's bird entangled.

[01:50:32] Suzie Price: He's bird entangled.

[01:50:33] Suzie Price: Birds talk back to him. But he said. They all the students all gathered around and I think I don't remember it exactly, but the image I have in my mind is you all presented. And maybe it was the first, you know, it was the institute was created, she was there. And I have pictures of it that you had sent me. And she was very, maybe emotional or very touched. And she says, you know, my biggest fear was that this wouldn't go on. And then you all have showed me that it is all this beautiful work. You know, those thousands of pages of work in the archive, you know, that we all need to access, you know, we're going to continue that. You all have kept it going. And I appreciate that very much. And so I'm going to do two plugs. One is if you're a member, if you're not a member, make sure you are a member. If you've ever considered being a axiological, if you're an axiological service provider, become an ASP. It gets you on the directory of of the Institute's page. And mostly what it does is allows you to donate. And you could do that anyway, but donate $250 to the Institute to go towards all the goods. It's a year annual fee. So I want to kind of promote that. The last thing is my podcast is Wake Up Eager and I have interviewed the past president who kept this thing together in between. She's not here with us today, but I interviewed K.T. Connor, who was a former nun and a beautiful, beautiful soul who kept this going. And her spirit is here. Oh, okay. Get a little excited. Yeah. Her spirit is here, and and, uh, she really cared. And she put up with a lot from all of these people. Beautiful people with a lot of long lines and with all the new people. And she was the bridge that she stayed president for years and years and years, even when I think she didn't want to. But anyway, there's a podcast interview with her. There's also an interview with Steve, there's an interview with Art, and there's a lot of axiology stuff on there, and there'll be stuff on there for from this conference today, too. So thank you. And thank you guys. Tom Hawk, the yodeling cowboy out of Cumberland, Maryland.

[01:52:43] Yodeler: Cowboy may roam from his homeland far out on the great divide, but in his heart he will still be a cowhand. And long for his pony to ride. Dear old Western skies, I want to go where the longhorn cattle roam. Dear old western skies. They'll never be another place that I call home. Seems that I can hear the cattle lowing. Seems that I can see the purple sage blowing. I hope I'll paint. And I will herd the dogies by and by. I know that dear old Western sky. Allatae allatae. Hello, t hello, Ali. Allatae allatae. Hello, de. Hello. Hello. Ali 80. He. Holy. Feel lonely a loti a loti. Allo allo allo allo. Hey hey hey hey hey. T.

[01:54:18] Suzie Price: So how did you like the episode? Did you feel like you got to know Hartman more? Could you see how many people around the world are using the tool as a consultants? Talk about how they used it and some of their passion. I'm not the only one who's passionate about about the assessment, so I hope you got what I wanted you to get from it, which is a deeper understanding of who Hartman was, the impact that he had. And so I'm going to the next thing I'm going to do, I'm going to give you a few little things about my favorite parts that I want to just highlight. I always do the Susie takeaways. I want to make sure you capture those because I heard all this, I was present, but I sure did like seeing the audio and then actually wanting to reremember some of these insights. So some of the key points that I think are great takeaways for life and for consulting. After I share these things, then I'm going to go into axiology what it is and more about Hartman's history so you can understand that. But a couple of key points. One thing that Art talks about and I think is so important to remember is all progress is progress forward, even if it's a little bit, don't discount it. You are still moving forward. That is from a book factfulness that that Art quotes a bit because it's a it's a great book.

[01:55:32] Suzie Price: I see that in every day. What I have had a habit of for years is making a list of what went well today, what do I appreciate? And if I don't sit down and do that, it's really easy to forget that you made progress and that there's a lot to appreciate. And so there's real value in that. It's real value in training our brain to go that way. All the input that we get, we can get lost in the in the shuffle. So don't discount progress. And I just think that's wise words. If that's the only thing you get out of today. That's from a very smArt man who's lived a really great life. I personally have experienced the benefit of that as well. So kudos on that. And let's all think about that and appreciate what is going well and honor it. And don't be so hard on ourselves. That's the thing. You know, if you think about the self view, the self view and the assessment, the Hartman value profile measures the world view and the self view. So how do we work in the world and how do we see our self. And it combines that and shows us when we're making decisions how both views impact our decision making. And so if we're really hard on herself, if we don't give ourselves the benefit of the doubt, then we don't make as good decisions because we lose energy, we're less resilient. So we've got to build up our self worth and self value.

[01:56:47] Suzie Price: And one way to do that is to pat yourself on the back, not need other people to do that. Become self driven in regard to knowing when things have gone well and when they could go better. I thought it was interesting in the conference and re reminded as I read the notes about what Mark Moore talked about, about distributive justice, and that it's a zero sum game and that distributive justice is what he feels like. Martin Luther King was talking about the ideal of race relationships, and that axiology and the and the dimensions in axiology, the intrinsic, extrinsic, systemic are very helpful in that. But justice is really so. Getting justice is giving everyone equal access, that everyone has equal rights. So I thought that was an interesting highlight. And that piece is a mindset. And so that is also very important to remember. I encourage you to check out the ebook Revolution Against War. It was pulled from Hartman's work. Great work was done on it by Katherine Blakemore Foster and Cliff Hurst, PhD, the design and outline and then pulling the work together and that that that work is as relevant today as it was when he wrote it in the 50s and 60s. And so it is still relevant today. You know, you're onto something when something is still relevant today. Hartman was talking about this in the 60s with Nationwide and Volkswagen.

[01:58:11] Suzie Price: I mean, so it has stood the test of time, and it may not be on every corner. We might not have those kiosks of everybody value clinics, but it continues to grow and it continues to be right and accurate. But I love what Steve talked about in regard to the concern about war and the fact that the systemic the ideas that people would spend more time on the ideas and the actual proving their concepts as being right and be without an intrinsic guardrail. So we all need an intrinsic guardrail so we could be really brilliant, we can know a lot and we can get a lot of things done. But if we don't have an intrinsic guardrail, we are missing a key element. And so we've got the thinking part, the doing part, but where's the people part. And so we have to do that with ourselves too. We've got the thinking part about where we're going. We've got the doing part of what we do. But what about the valuing of who we are? And so that intrinsic guardrail, I'm going to use that verbiage in the future. I think that that is powerful. We need to make sure we remember that all three dimensions matter. We need to think, we need to do, and we need to be. But if we're going to prioritize them, the hierarchy is B, then do. Then think in regard to they all matter. We want them to be part of our decisions.

[01:59:29] Suzie Price: It's part of explains why it's it's a measurement of judgment, and it's a measurement of how we think, feel and make decisions. Mark Moore talks about that. Hartman was a magical, magical figure whose memory not only deserves to be revered, but his presence needs to be perpetuated. And I would say that they're doing that in the work that they do. The way each person shows up, their humor, their kindness that is perpetuating what they saw in Robert Hartman. And I know that influenced them. And then we're all doing that as best we can, more and more, seeing the good in people and highlighting that. And Steve Byrum also highlights that a bit, and talks about how he was one of the kindest people that he had ever known. And I know Steve Byrum has known a lot of people. He's pretty pretty much a legend, right? He's the kindest person I've ever known in my life, he said. And this is funny to me. I spent 25 years in higher education, and so the stereotype of a pompous academic is, well, didn't come out of the clear blue sky. So Hartman was the most opposite of that as a human could possibly be. He said. You could have been a lowly graduate student, which is low in the scheme of life to academics, but he always wanted to know about where you had come from, what you had done, what shaped your life, what ambitions you had, and to have someone like him be that kind and to want to know and want to listen well, look what they have all accomplished in their life from that kind of influence.

[02:00:59] Suzie Price: And that's that intrinsic guardrail. That's that point. I mean, Hartman was living what he taught and what he knew, and he saw it mathematically. He saw it real in the world. He lived it with the killing people for ideas and Hitler and all that. It's like, no, we put people first. And when if you put people first, you're curious about them. You want to know who they are. And so if we can make that a priority and relax into that, uh, the value it brings in our life and the value we bring and what we get to learn about people, we can stay curious. Steve says. People in this crazy world we live in today may be looking for environments of kindness and listening. Yes, I think they are. And we've got to make sure that the institute we were asking, I was asking questions about what does the institute need to do, that we maintain the spirit of the kind of person that Robert and Rita Hartman were. And you heard reference to that from a lot of our consultants and people explaining or academics that were explaining why they're there and what they felt. And we saw that in my very first conference was 2019. We were in Salt Lake City at one of the universities there, and we had university students in the room helping with filming the different sessions.

[02:02:13] Suzie Price: And and the students really got into what we were talking about and got into the energy, the intrinsic guardrail that was in that meeting. And at the end they talked about how they felt, the care they felt, the interest, they felt the love. And we were all essentially a lot of people in that room were competitors of each other in regard to we're all consultants and we all use different. Rules, but we're trying to be like Hartman. And when I think about that, I that touched me. You know, we all are living through that example and getting better and better at it. You know, we're all humans, so we're not not quite got it completely figured out all the time. I certainly don't, but it does make a difference. And I love what Steve Byrum talked about in scattering the seeds of this information by just being and being the best version of ourselves. You know, we are the vehicle through which life happens. And so, you know, paying attention to how we think, feel and make decisions and how we grow these dimensions of ourselves. And that sometimes that when we share we're kind to someone, it'll fall on fertile ground and it'll help someone grow up or help something grow into something that's remarkably substantial. And that's our responsibility as the institute, as consultants, as leaders in our organizations, and to plant those seeds and never think that it's an insignificant activity, that that is a part of living well.

[02:03:37] Suzie Price: And then Art kind of put the bow on top, which is one of the things that that that means is this atmosphere of cooperation with each other rather than competition, being able to work together and share. So that was very, very well said. And we had a little bit of conversation about the value clinics. And, you know, the old vision of a Kodak, you know, we used to take film and depending on when you were born, you may not remember this, but you used to take film. You didn't just get it on your phone and print it out at your house. You had to take film to a film store at Kodak, and then they would give you your pictures. And so kiosk, you know, you drop it off, you drive through, kind of drive through like a drive through to get your coffee. But we do have those, those kiosks today. There's all these independent consultants out there doing great work. And I think you hopefully you heard and felt their great work. So talking about how they explain Axiology and I'm going to do my job of explaining some of that to you. But there's three areas, as you know, that you focus on. You've got to look at things systemically, extrinsically and intrinsically and that that we we have one mind and we think in these three dimensions.

[02:04:46] Suzie Price: So I'm going to go into more detail about that when I go through the explanation of Hartman's history and Axiology next. But Steve's point was that the core concept makes it easy to understand that there's, we think, in three dimensions and to get the right priority of those dimensions, and that we can use, as Art says, value science in our own lives without calculus, without being formal axiology, without a complicated formula. We only need to be able to apply the yardstick of intrinsic value. So it doesn't really matter if they know whether it's axiology or not. Then, on the other hand, what I thought was interesting and there's just it's like you trip over it in every conversation you have with some of the people that have been around the Institute for a long time, it worked with Hartman. You trip over these magnificent insights. Which one is was the lawsuit that Mark Moore had won against Intel, where they were using Hartman's strategy and he was never acknowledged. I mean, so that happens everywhere. His heart, his work, is in everything he touched Esops he touched 401 KS because he was talking about people first and and he developed these concepts. He was on all kinds of committees and, and influential committees to help bring more well-being to the workforce and to people. And he did amazing things in his short life. And so I just think that is so interesting.

[02:06:09] Suzie Price: And just understanding that helps you understand why. Okay, if I type in TriMetrix, yeah, there's some information there, but it's not at the level of this because Hartman's work is in everything. So it's in all these other tools. And so it's just interesting. And then I'll close with each one of them getting there, talking about their, you know, debrief with Hartman, Steve Byrum, he's always so folksy. He's the folksy voice that tells great stories. And he said that, you know, he remembered if you noticed, he taught, he gave the details. Uh, he took it on the weekend. He came to the door. The door was closed. He had it was at this particular time and he said, I'm an introverted, private person, and the only language I've it able to use about that moment when he debriefed the assessment, I felt like somebody had turned a spotlight on my soul. There were things that Doctor Hartman started talking to me about that only my wife knew. So it didn't take long for him to become a believer of it, and to have that kind of epiphany about the Hartman value profile. Art Ellis talks about it, and, you know, he had never even met Hartman, but his wife was very had taken some of Hartman's classes and said, oh, Art, you need to, you know, come see him and you need to learn from him. This would be great. And so she he said, I found him to be warm and receiving.

[02:07:28] Suzie Price: And I can remember Hartman using the terms x ray of the soul. And it really, you know, revealed a great deal of. The structure of my internal and external life. That's what Axiology does. And so he said, and I thought, this is the kind of probably a good closer on this is that the Hartman value profile represents those three dimensions in axiology, which is the systemic, extrinsic and intrinsic. It's how we think, do and be. And he says formal axiology is the systemic part. It's the thinking, it's the thought, it's the vision. It's the, you know, ideas that give us the structure for what we do and for the Hartman value profile. It gives us the structure for the test that generates numbers, generates data. It's the doing part, the extrinsic. And if you look at those numbers and you analyze them, but the picture is not complete. And here we are back again with this intrinsic guardrail. The picture is not complete until you do the intrinsic part. And you transfer all that information in the numbers to the person in front of you by just saying, hey, what do you think? Does this ring true for you? How does that show up in your life? So it's not a crystal ball and it's not magic. It's a way to understand people. And I think that Nancy Roberts and several of the consultants talked about that.

[02:08:46] Suzie Price: Nancy had some great examples of what was going on with this person, and they were, and I've seen it over and over and over again in the work that I do, where you start to see the whole person, and then you can get to understand and have these deeper, richer, meaningful conversations that can help them and help you help them. Our shared that once you had that experience with Hartman, he said, I became a heart maniac on the spot. So I hope you've enjoyed the conversation about heart Maniac. I'm going to give you a little bit of a summary, in case you don't want to hear about what Axiology is and what Hartman is, is, I want to mention two things one. Go to the show notes. Priceless S Hartman. Hartman. And you will get a lot of links. You'll get the transcript. You'll get the timestamps. So you can go to the areas that you're interested in. You'll get the hour memory jogger card that we use to debrief the assessment. And these dimensions in Axiology. You're going to get links to other episodes with other Axiology influencers a lot there. I also want to mention that the 48th annual Robert S Hartman Institute conference is coming up in Atlanta again at the beautiful Shane Hotel, which is a great location, downtown Atlanta midtown. I think it's called really. I live in North Georgia now, so I've already forgotten everything I knew about Atlanta.

[02:10:06] Suzie Price: I'm in the North Georgia mountains, so I think it's calling. Midtown is where we were. But anyway, nice hotel and the date is September 25th to 27th. Easy walking distance to restaurants. Great conversation, uh, meaningful dialogue. And the theme for this year is Empowering Transformation with Axiology. So that sounds really great. So I hope you'll join us there. You'll see the show note. You'll see a link to the conference. If you're not a member of the Hartman Institute and this interests you, it's very inexpensive to join and the value is there. There was also some mention to the journals and journal Articles. These are academic Articles, but they're very interesting and they're well vetted to get in the journal. And if you're a member of the institute, you get access to all those journals. So some of that was referenced in these conversations. But go to the show notes. Again, priceless S Hartman. And you will be able to get the links to all of the good stuff. Okay. Let's talk about Robert Hartman and his history and a little bit about Axiology. So Hartman, let's talk about him. So Hartman, let's talk about what his drivers were. He wanted to tackle the challenge of how do you measure good and measuring good is is something or talking about what is good. How do you know if something's good has been talked about for thousands of years by philosophers? Aristotle talked about it 2000 years ago, I think.

[02:11:34] Suzie Price: I think it's 2000 years. But axiom logy Axios means worth. So it's a science, a logic based science that measures how we value what our worth is and what is good. And so Hartman was driven to bring science to social science, and he wanted to measure what is good because he had seen evil, he had seen Hitler. His real name was Robert Shircore. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that totally correctly, but it should be close. And he fled Germany in 1932 with a passport with the last name Hartman. So that's how he became Robert S Hartman. And he said, you can not kill people for their ideas, that every life is sacred. And he wanted to measure what is good. How do we be all that we can be? How do we measure our thinking? How do we measure our judgment so that we're leaning toward goodness, not evil? And so that was his mission he had. Phds in philosophy and mathematics, and he had a law degree. So you can think you can see how the how the math part of Axiology comes into play, how the philosophy comes into play. He he was a philosophy professor at the University of Tennessee and University of Mexico. He also taught at MIT and a lot of other places. He did so much in his life. It's amazing. Like I said, every time you turn around, you stumble over some other remarkable fact about this man and his work.

[02:13:02] Suzie Price: But in his years that these students, these legends that we got to meet knew him was at the University of Tennessee. And then there's a lot of people from Mexico who are very strong, and they were his students that are still very active today. And they've, of course, handed it down to different generations. And so it continues to move on. And internationally, he is popular. He was a colleague with Abraham Maslow who was talking about the hierarchy of needs and was, you know, focused on and a little bit more famous than Hartman is in circles is about, you know, how do we self-actualize how do we transcend, you know, be all that we can be? Well, they were they had a commonality there. And they worked on different committees together and started different organizations together. Back then, the Hartman Value Profile was created, and he described it as a study of one's thinking habits. And so you always hear me talk about it as how we think, feel, and make decisions. It's a study of how we're thinking. Snapshot. Here's where we are. He talked about the Hartman value profile and used it in companies. Not only did he trial it on his students, companies like Siemens, Alcoa, nationwide, Volkswagen, we have talks from his nationwide when he was talking to leaders, and he was always talking to them about how to value the people, the intrinsic guardrail, how to add that in.

[02:14:25] Suzie Price: Back then, that was not common. It wasn't common to have Esop programs where you get the employee ownership involved. But he was the creator of a lot of that. He was the instigator. He was the dialogue maker and 401 K's and so much. He spoke out against war and he spoke out for peace. And he was nominated for a Nobel Prize. He died unexpectedly in 1973. So you can't get a Nobel Prize if you're not here. So we don't know what would have happened with that. He wrote over 12 books and thousands and thousands of Articles and documents, and we have his archives at the University of Tennessee. And we've been, as an institute getting his material. And Cliff Hurst, who is a professor and a amazing human, I've also had him on the podcast. And Art Ellis and others have been involved in taking the work from the archives. Katherine Blakemore Foster has been a big piece of that and digitizing it, making sure we don't lose this material. Hundreds of thousands of documents there. You know, we're standing on the shoulders of a lot of other people who made sure those documents stayed alive. The Medford's, which was another student of Hartman and very involved in starting the institute. So there's just a lot of great history here. And so if you're interested, the Hartman Institute is Hartman Institute. Org if you go to our podcast at Wake-Up Your Workforce. Com you can look for the Axiology influencers episodes.

[02:15:52] Suzie Price: And also for today's podcast you'll see the links to that. So let's talk about what Axiology is you heard. References. Formal and applied Axiology formal Axiology I think the a good definition is a logic based value science that gauges our mental clarity, emotional orientation, and conditioning. From a broad definition, it's the science of human values, and when we apply it by taking the Hartman value profile and whatever format it is and the different tools that that are out there, we get these measurements and we get insight x ray to the soul is what Steve Byrum and or he looked into my soul like no one else had. So let's talk about that. We when we look at a person, you look at me, you say, okay, she has one mind, she has one head. And she thinks what Hartman does with the Hartman Value profile is help us recognize we think in two worlds. We think in the world view and the self view. So how do I look at the world? How do I communicate in the world? And how do I look at myself? How do I communicate, interact in the world? How do I make decisions in both places? So one mind, two worlds, and then in each world there are three dimensions. So in the world view there's a think do be dimension, systemic extrinsic, intrinsic dimension. So the thinking dimension is the systems judgment. The doing dimension is practical thinking.

[02:17:17] Suzie Price: And the being dimension is in how we understand others. So it is the black and white idea to the task, to the doing, to the people. And here's an easy example with it's in everything. It's like gravity. So if you think about gravity. We just move around and it is there. So once you know that there are three dimensions, we have one mind, two worlds and three dimensions. You see it in everything. For example, sheet music, sheet music. You have the concept of the music. You got the idea of what notes need to be played, and then you have the actual player, the doing of the music, and then you have the being. So how am I impacted by the music, how I feel about it? So it is the three dimensions one mind, two worlds, three dimensions and our self view. We have the same thing. We call it self direction is the thinking. How do I think about my future? Do I have hope for the future? Do I have a plan for myself? Do I know where I'm going? Am I eager when I get up to go do it? Do I put my feet on the floor and I know what my day is going to be? The more you're like that, the more you have high self direction in your thinking of your self view and role. Awareness is this idea of role confidence. It's the doing part of your life.

[02:18:33] Suzie Price: It's it's when I am in the world and I'm doing how do I feel about myself? Do I feel confident? Do I have a sense of belonging? Um, do I know where I fit in? And so that's role awareness. Sometimes when people go through job change or they go through a divorce, when people talk about being stressed, this role awareness will go up and down. So I don't clearly see where I belong. I don't have confidence in my personal and professional roles. Well, then there's greater stress there. So it's really anytime anybody scores differently in these a lot of people alluded to this. They get some understanding. And usually someone will say, well yes I'm going through X. And so that's what that is. So that's the thinking the doing and the being. And we talked about that a little bit today is the self view self-worth. Do I value my self. Do I appreciate what progress I've made or do I have to get outside validation. Do I live my life through others or do I know my value? And so the more our, the stronger our self view is. The higher our personal accountability we have, the better we are managing our priorities. The more resilient we are, the more we can bounce back from stress. And so it's so helpful to understand that we don't just work in the world. We bring our self to the world, and we bring that to all the decisions that we make.

[02:19:49] Suzie Price: And so we have one mind, two worlds and these three dimensions. And so as a reminder, the dimensional balance page graph, which is the graph in our TriMetrix tool, I have a memory jogger card. Feel free to grab it and you'll see explanations of each one of the dimensions and it measures clarity. How clearly do I see that dimension? In other words, what's my strength towards it? Do I orient towards this? Do I stand on this? Or if I don't see it, do I just kind of ignore it when I'm making decisions? And do I miss it? And then it also measures how we feel. So remember I say we think, feel and make decisions. So how do I feel? Do I go towards it. So I agree with it and I like it. Or do I shy away from it or move away from it and have an aspect of unsatisfaction around it? So am I moving towards it or away from it? So how does the assessment work? Well, it's the part of the assessment when you're taking TriMetrix, where you're ranking 18 items, two sets of 18 items. The first set is the world view. And these are proxy statements that represent there's all kinds of thinking like Mark Moore, Steve Byrum and Art Ellis thinking that goes in behind these proxy statements. They look like innocent statements. But what your job to do is to, when you're taking the assessment, is to rank the first 18 from good to bad.

[02:21:07] Suzie Price: So this is good, this is the next good. And then all the way down you're the best thing is up top. And the what you think is the worst thing is at the bottom. And the beauty of that is you have to think how you think you have to. You can't. There's no I don't know what the right answer is, because the only answer you can give is your answer. So that's why you can't really trick this. I know the science. I've had a lot, of lot of work on understanding how it's done. I still don't always get the whole piece of it because it's pretty involved, but at the end of the day, I still can't trick my own assessment. I just have to think how I think when I'm answering this. So that's one of the values of the tool. Um, and then you rank a second set of items and that's the self view items. Same thing, these very simple proxy statements that have a lot of work behind them that represent each dimension. And there's the mathematical formula that helps you get to that dimension and you're ranking those 18 statements. I agree with this the most and I agree with this the least. And so you're ranking them. You drag them over. So there are 78 quadrillion ways to rank the items. And then how we rank them is compared to the perfect score.

[02:22:18] Suzie Price: So how however far we are off on the perfect score via how we think about it and the clarity, and then how we feel about it represents how our score lands, how much we're valuing or dis valuing each dimension. And so that's what reveal. Yields clarity and bias. And so that is hopefully you got some nuggets from that or at least a better understanding of it. You do not have to be an expert in understanding this tool. But what I do know is if you can read the dimensional balance page graph, that's one piece. And then the even bigger piece is understand your own assessment results in this area in particular, and get some of the experiences that some of the consultants were talking about for themselves or for their clients, for yourself. Then it becomes not just a concept, but something real that you know you can do something with and that you feel. And that's the, of course, the three dimensions I just did right there. Right. Did you catch that? No, I know it, I understand it, I can do it. I know, know what to do with it. And what we do to help people do things with this information is with the hiring we have. If if they scored lower in this dimension. Let's go ask these interview questions so we can understand where they're coming from. So we're not asking them about the dimension.

[02:23:35] Suzie Price: We're asking interview questions that help you understand, you know, how strong are they in this area and is that going to work on the job or what support do they need? We also have a TriMetrix university where we help people grow in these different areas, and the different personal skills that these dimensions represent. And then in each of the graphs so you can have a good coaching conversation. We we are a real big coach of coaches. So I do do coaching. But a lot of times I'm helping coach other people in using the tool or helping others grow. So that's why how we use the TriMetrix in throughout the employee life cycle. So that is a summary of two areas. I know this has been a long episode. I hope it's been valuable to you. If you have any input or you're willing to give any feedback, please send me a note. Susie at priceless Also leave us a review. Share the podcast. Subscribe. Thank you for being a part of the Wake Up Eco Workforce podcast. Thank you for being a part of my world. Thank you for being you. And I see you waking up eager. I see you appreciating all the good progress that you've made today and every day. And I see you seeing others and tuning into them and being curious about who they are. And as you do that, we all grow together. So we'll see you on the next episode. Appreciate you so much. Take care.

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